Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[LeGenD]

The Chinese tanks are moving, while the others are standing still. Not really a fair comparison.

 

[Abid123]

M1 Abrams does not fit Pakistani requirements. Was tested in Pakistan during the Zia Ul Haq era was rejected because it was too heavy for Pakistani terrain. Correct me If I am wrong..

 

[iLION12345_1]

M1 Abrams does not fit Pakistani requirements. Was tested in Pakistan during the Zia Ul Haq era was rejected because it was too heavy for Pakistani terrain. Correct me If I am wrong..

If Pakistan had the money to run it, it’d fit the terrain just fine. Americans used them in Iraqi and Iranian deserts to much success. It’s more that the tank may not fit our doctrine. It’s arguably one of the best tanks in service anywhere, just for some countries, not all.

 

[PakFactor]

M1 Abrams does not fit Pakistani requirements. Was tested in Pakistan during the Zia Ul Haq era was rejected because it was too heavy for Pakistani terrain. Correct me If I am wrong..

It's a flawed strategy in my opinion, you need a mix of heavy and low weight. What we have honestly, is low to medium weight. Heavy tanks offer more protection and survivability in the field. Saying it doesn't fit out terrain while the American's were running ape shit in the Iraqi desert blasting the Iraqi's.

 

[iLION12345_1]

It's a flawed strategy in my opinion, you need a mix of heavy and low weight. What we have honestly, is low to medium weight. Heavy tanks offer more protection and survivability in the field. Saying it doesn't fit out terrain while the American's were running ape shit in the Iraqi desert blasting the Iraqi's.

i believe Zia and the entire Pakistani military leadership just straight up dying at once probably played a part in the tank not being purchased, I don’t think it failed any Pakistani trials, or if it did, was not being crewed by a trained US crew. If anything the issues would be monetary (or would be related to the US trying to control just which type and how many of them Pakistan got).

 

[LeGenD]

M1 Abrams in Afghanistan:

Provided results in any sector of Afghanistan - no losses in these battles.

 

[PakFactor]

i believe Zia and the entire Pakistani military leadership just straight up dying at once probably played a part in the tank not being purchased, I don’t think it failed any Pakistani trials, or if it did, was not being crewed by a trained US crew. If anything the issues would be monetary (or would be related to the US trying to control just which type and how many of them Pakistan got).

That is possible the top brass being eliminated killed the "potential" deal with it. However, almost 30+ years later there were multitude of options for Pakistan to choose from. Just look at our useless officers and their procurement strategy you lose half a decade waiting on a Turkish Heli due to engine (knowing full well the US wouldn't approve) instead of going Chinese and working to fix the issues and making it compatible (again the army terrain or weather issues bullshit is the same story).

In all honesty, the issue is we don't have an established and proper military doctrine, we aren't an offensive force but operating like territorial army only since inception of this country. A defensive postured army has never won a conflict at home or away, your die from attrition without inflicted a mortal wound on your enemy.

@waz

 

[Beast]

Come back when you know the first thing about frontal-arc designs, long rod penetrators, cooled thermals, The importance of side armor and smaller lower front plates. Maybe then you’ll realize the issues I keep trying to highlight with the entire list of Chinese tanks (and since you’re both so sensitive, I’ll make it absolutely clear this time; this does not mean I’m insulting the entire country, it’s technological prowess, the machine it has created or your tiny egos, I’m saying it has problems that you two fail to accept because of bias, just like it has strengths that you two already highlighted, It’s called a fair discussion. Keep it to that).

Really? Sounds like another gimmick from you without any concrete explanation. I am still waiting.

 

[iLION12345_1]

That is possible the top brass being eliminated killed the "potential" deal with it. However, almost 30+ years later there were multitude of options for Pakistan to choose from. Just look at our useless officers and their procurement strategy you lose half a decade waiting on a Turkish Heli due to engine (knowing full well the US wouldn't approve) instead of going Chinese and working to fix the issues and making it compatible (again the army terrain or weather issues bullshit is the same story).

In all honesty, the issue is we don't have an established and proper military doctrine, we aren't an offensive force but operating like territorial army only since inception of this country. A defensive postured army has never won a conflict at home or away, your die from attrition without inflicted a mortal wound on your enemy.

@waz

Though I mostly agree with your sentiment, I don’t think the two issues in question are related, even if the death of Zia was a total accident, such a major event would likely have pushed back many decisions, including major military purchases, so the abrams deal might have gone with that. I personally think the US wasn’t allowing Pakistan to buy enough of them or wasn’t allowing Pakistan to get it in the specifications it wanted. With tanks once you make the switch over to Eastern tanks, you’re not going to western without a major money loss, because of all the doctrine and logistics issues. When it comes to tanks, PA has actually made pretty good decisions. Our armored fleet is a step ahead of the IAs for now due to the good decisions of the military, despite the major budget crunch in the war on terror.

 

[Beast]

It's a flawed strategy in my opinion, you need a mix of heavy and low weight. What we have honestly, is low to medium weight. Heavy tanks offer more protection and survivability in the field. Saying it doesn't fit out terrain while the American's were running ape shit in the Iraqi desert blasting the Iraqi's.

Abram tank running on Iraq terrain vs Pakistan south Asia hilly terrain are 2 different things.

 

[LeGenD]

M1 Abrams does not fit Pakistani requirements. Was tested in Pakistan during the Zia Ul Haq era was rejected because it was too heavy for Pakistani terrain. Correct me If I am wrong..

It could be retrofitted or modified for Pakistani requirements much like Chinese VT-4; Americans are known to oblige customers as well. But regional political climate became very tense after the loss of multiple high-profile men including then COAS Zia-ul-Haq and the American ambassador to Pakistan Arnold Lewis Raphel in a shocking C-130 related incident. The ongoing trails were immediately halted and procurement plans were suspended for indefinite period. American defense consultant Steven J. Zaloga pointed out as much in one of his books.

 

[PakFactor]

Abram tank running on Iraq terrain vs Pakistan south Asia hilly terrain are 2 different things.View attachment 814181

Yes, I know but if you pay attention carefully to the border with Pakistan/India and look into India itself its relatively flat. Kashmir is another story not much tank warfare will take place there. Central Punjab & Sindh should also be the focus to prevent Indian penetration and around Lahore, etc. There is enough utility and justification for heavy tanks.

 

[Legio XI The Ironclads]

Yes, I know but if you pay attention carefully to the border with Pakistan/India and look into India itself its relatively flat. Kashmir is another story not much tank warfare will take place there. Central Punjab & Sindh should also be the focus to prevent Indian penetration and around Lahore, etc. There is enough utility and justification for heavy tanks.

I recall one of the problems Pak Army had with the Abrams was its weight. Many bridges would have to have been upgraded to accommodate it.
I saw this written in an article from the time from a senior Army officer.

 

[Beast]

China doesn’t make any long-rod penetrators for its tanks (because none of them have modern auto-loaders to fire them apart from the ZTZ-99A………did I mention how easily those auto-loaders are damaged which caused a catastrophic explosion because there has been zero emphasis payed to crew safety by isolating ammo?). The best Chinese ammo is comparable to 90s Western and 2000s Russian ammo.

Need I go on?

From 2:48m

Please do not go on anymore. You are making a fool of yourself.

As for your front arcs BS for VT-4, too many nonsense which I do not need to explain.

 

[PakFactor]

I recall one of the problems Pak Army had with the Abrams was its weight. Many bridges would have to have been upgraded to accommodate it.
I saw this written in an article from the time from a senior Army officer.

An upgrade to infrastructure would have been a good start to accommodate it along with its "economic use" by the rest of the population, with a growing population and more automobiles it's would have been perfect. Remember logistics lines are very crucial in war time and peace time. This is where a lack for foresight hurts Pakistanis.