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Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

China also has very very hot desert area to test MBT, from inner Mogolia to Xinjiang.

ISPR screens it to ensure that nothing sensitive is disclosed to the public. There is nothing sensitive about a trial of an MBT that occurred 30 years ago, IMO.

People like you are the reason this nation is in heightened state of mess and delusions.

I tell you that M1A1 Abrams MBT has performed well in the environments of Middle East and Afghanistan also. It has utterly dominated various Russian and Chinese MBTs in the battlefield, and its accuracy has been praised by critics and proponents alike.

Same officers tell us that Pakistan Army is best which is a patriotic slogan, not reality. We cannot bury our head in the sand.

Accounts of Persian Gulf War (1991) are in the public domain and irrefutable.

You keep thinking that Chinese Type-59 MBT is better than M1A1 Abrams MBT and "Earth is flat."
American tanks are working in information battlefield, very strong battlefield situational awareness capability. Even Other country has M1A1 or M1A2, they can't make a full-fledge use of it cause the surrounding here is missing.
 
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ISPR screens it to ensure that nothing sensitive is disclosed to the public. There is nothing sensitive about a trial of an MBT that occurred 30 years ago, IMO.

People like you are the reason this nation is in heightened state of mess and delusions.

I tell you that M1A1 Abrams MBT has performed well in the environments of Middle East and Afghanistan also. It has utterly dominated various Russian and Chinese MBTs in the battlefield, and its accuracy has been praised by critics and proponents alike.

Same officers tell us that Pakistan Army is best which is a patriotic slogan, not reality. We cannot bury our head in the sand.

Accounts of Persian Gulf War (1991) are in the public domain and irrefutable.

You keep thinking that Chinese Type-59 MBT is better than M1A1 Abrams MBT and "Earth is flat."


I had a discussion with someone who was there during the trials and what he told me was that Abrams were M1 configuration and it had 105mm Gun not the 120mm of M1 A1, hence the firing results were not upto the mark. Secondly the engine at that time was a problem , the gas turbine of the era was unable to go the distance in the soft desert. Thirdly, it was a very heavy tank and our infrastructure of the time was unable to handle such a heavy tank.......
From history it has always been proven US always provides us stuff which is a level behind.... For example when we were inducting f16 block 15 world already saw C/D models coming out........
 
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Regarding the M1 Abram which Pakistan trialed, not M1A1, the main reason for rejection ( which an old engineer Corp officer {who ensure mobility of tanks } told me ) was that the infrastructure , our bridges our bridge laying vehicles our pontoon bridges our roads all were not built to accommodate heavy weight tanks like the Abram.
 
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We're looking for a foreign tank for an obvious reason.
HITs production rate for the AK is abysmal, and we need new 3rd gen tanks ASAP to replace our T59 and T69 regiments.
I personally see the Oplot as the better contender here, but let's see what our military minds make out of the VT-4.
 
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We're looking for a foreign tank for an obvious reason.
HITs production rate for the AK is abysmal, and we need new 3rd gen tanks ASAP to replace our T59 and T69 regiments.
I personally see the Oplot as the better contender here, but let's see what our military minds make out of the VT-4.



Primary reason for the low production rate of Alkhalid MBT is the scarcity of funds. That tank costs about $5-million each with many parts such as Engine & transmission etc purchased with the US Dollars.

Don't think Oplot or any other tank will be less expensive and therefore the funds constraints would still be there.
IMHO reason for the going for a new tank instead of persisting with the AlKhalid being that Alkhalid is based on MBT2000 concept and Pak Army now desires a more advanced and battle worthy machine.
 
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Images suggest Pakistan Army may be testing Norinco VT4 MBT

Samuel Cranny-Evans - Jane's Defence Weekly
08 January 2018

1717260_-_main.jpg

The PA may be testing AVIC's VT4 MBT (seen here). Source: Via cjdby.net

Images have emerged on Chinese social media suggesting that the Pakistan Army (PA) may be testing the China North Industries Corporation (Norinco) VT4 main battle tank (MBT). Published on 6 January the photographs show PA personnel inspecting a VT4 platform at an undisclosed location.

The VT4 is a third-generation MBT offered for export by Norinco. It is an improvement over the Al-Khalid MBT (also known as MBT-2000), which is currently in service with the PA, although it retains the 125 mm main gun, carousel auto-loader, and crew configuration of the older vehicle.

Among the key differentiating features are the thermal-imaging capabilities and panoramic sights of the VT4, which enhance the vehicle’s ability to operate at night or in poorly lit environments. The VT4 is also capable of incorporating a remote weapon station.

Pakistan is known to be in close co-operation with China for the development and acquisition of MBTs, although it is also likely to continue to use other sources, notably Ukraine, for powerpacks and ancillary systems.

Pakistan currently deploys a fleet of Al-Khalid and Type 85-II MBTs, as well as a large quantity of T-80UDs MBTs, the latter which were supplied by Ukraine. The South Asian country is in the process of increasing the size of its armoured vehicle fleet to match that of its regional rival, India, which recently announced plans to convert a large part of its T-72 MBTs fleet to the T-90S standard.

Moreover, an Indian order for 700 T-90S MBTs is expected to be placed in April 2018, which will eventually take the Indian Army’s total number of T-90S platforms to more than 1,500 vehicles, thus placing Pakistan at a distinct numerical disadvantage in terms of modern MBTs.

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Images suggest Pakistan Army may be testing Norinco VT4 MBT | Jane's Defence Weekly
 
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I had a discussion with someone who was there during the trials and what he told me was that Abrams were M1 configuration and it had 105mm Gun not the 120mm of M1 A1, hence the firing results were not upto the mark. Secondly the engine at that time was a problem , the gas turbine of the era was unable to go the distance in the soft desert. Thirdly, it was a very heavy tank and our infrastructure of the time was unable to handle such a heavy tank.......
From history it has always been proven US always provides us stuff which is a level behind.... For example when we were inducting f16 block 15 world already saw C/D models coming out........
Thanks for your valuable insight. Now that makes sense.

I learned from a source that a Pakistani military delegation visited US in 1987 to evaluate M1A1 Abrams MBT and its performance stunned our delegation. This is why Pakistani military expressed its interest in inducting this MBT and a unit was dispatched to Pakistan for trials in Bahawalpur* but Zia-ul-Haq (and his team) perished in an unfortunate event soon after and the ensuing political crises led to cancellation of the deal.

*Yes, it is rare for the US to provide us the real thing. Your disclosure suggest that Americans dispatched a noticeably inferior (watered-down) unit for trials in Pakistan. However, outcome of this trial has created a false impression in Pakistan that M1A1 Abrams MBT is trash and this belief is utterly misplaced and "dangerous." People are lacking in knowledge about the specifications of the unit that was tested in Pakistan and the vastly superior American designs.

Iraq learned its lesson the hard way in 1991 but it was not in the position to do anything about it. In-fact, performance of US army in this war stunned the entire world including USSR and China. Consequently, Russia embraced the notion of hybrid warfare and China initiated a major modernization drive of its armed forces.

Arabian deserts have sand that is thin and soft like talcum powder (I have seen them in person). This kind of sand easily creeps into sensitive parts of any vehicle and can ruin it. Therefore, it is not wise to drive through Arabian deserts without appropriate measures. In order to utilize M1A1 in this kind of environment, engine of every unit was outfitted with a high quality air filter to prevent "sand ingestion," and problem addressed. At present, both M1A1 and M1A2 variants are outfitted with high quality (self-cleaning) air filters for operations in desert environments across the world.

As far as the accuracy factor is concerned, one needs to examine onboard systems of an M1A1 and Type-59 MBT; difference is like between day and night.

A glimpse of Type-59 MBT from inside:

IMG_5120.jpg


Glimpses of M1A1 Abrams from inside:

image.jpg

640px-M1A1_Abrams_gunner%E2%80%99s_primary_sight.jpg


Specifications of M1A1 Abrams in 1985:-
  • 120 mm main gun (M256 Smooth Bore cannon)
  • Nuclear, biological, and chemical overpressure system
  • Advanced Chobham armor
  • Advanced suspension (torsion bars with rotary shock absorbers)
  • Hydraulically stabilized turret/gun system
  • Digital ballistic computer
  • Laser range finder (LRF)
  • Thermal imaging night sight (TIS)
  • Onboard malfunction detection system
  • Compartmented fuel/ammunition
  • Single channel ground/air radio system (SINGCARS)
You can learn a great deal about M1A1 from this book: https://ospreypublishing.com/m1-abrams-vs-t-72-ural

Thermal imaging capability of M1A1 in 2013:


More importantly, M1 Abrams is a continuously evolving platform.

The latest prototype is known as M1A2 SEP V3. Although much of the information about this variant is classified at the moment, I learned a few tidbits and they suggest a cutting-edge machine. Structure is similar to the older M1A1 but virtually everything onboard is revolutionary. This variant might also receive a new generation of ammunition to defeat emerging threats.


Every mounted gun of M1A2 SEP V3 can be controlled from inside when not manned.

German Leopard-II MBT is also becoming cutting-edge.


Another thing is that no matter how advanced a weapon system is, adequate training is a must. Crew must learn how to take advantage of the capabilities of a weapon system.

For example, the (famous) Battle of 73 Easting took place during sandstorm conditions:

By contrast, U.S. troops fought extremely well. At 73 Easting, for example, the 2nd ACR maintained a tight, efficient combat formation throughout an extended approach march, and did so in the midst of a sandstorm, in hostile territory, over unfamiliar terrain, and without significant losses to mechanical breakdown or logistical failure en route. Its crews' gunnery was exceptional, outperforming peacetime proving ground standards for both the M1 and the Bradley. The first three kills by Eagle troop were recorded in three shots by a single M1 over an interval of less than ten seconds. As a whole, 182 of 215, or 85 percent, of the shots fired by 2nd ACR crews struck their targets at ranges of up to 2000 meters, under combat conditions.(76) Similar results were obtained by U.S. forces throughout the KTO.

Source: Victory Misunderstood: What the Gulf War Tells Us About the Future of Conflict - The RMA Debate

American tanks are working in information battlefield, very strong battlefield situational awareness capability. Even Other country has M1A1 or M1A2, they can't make a full-fledge use of it cause the surrounding here is missing.
Yes, this is also a factor. Good point.

I assure you that I have nothing against MBT designs of Russia, Ukraine and China. They are good in their own right and suit our needs.

M1A1 Abrams MBT absolutely outgunned Russian (T-72 and T-62) and Chinese (Type-69, Type-59 and Type-55) MBT in the Persian Gulf War (1991) but this does not imply that Russian and Chinese MBT were/are bad; rather M1A1 was relatively superior in capabilities and safety measures to its contemporaries.

My point is that it is important for people to do their homework and look at the bigger picture.
 
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Like in any profession, there are some people better at their jobs then others. While we have some excellent cadre in the officer corp, not all PA officers are of high caliber. I have met a lot of serving officers, some of them don't even know about other equipment fielded by our own military. Others are far behind in the technical or education realms. So when looking at a source it is always better to be critical of the information being received. This reminds me of a chapter from a book by Brian Cloughley (I think) talking about Zarb-e-momin exercises where he along with some other foreign observers went to see and talk to some of the officers participating. He mentions that at one point an artillery officer said with much pride that they only need to say Allah-o-Akbar in order to hit the enemies with accurate fire, much to the embarrassment of some other senior officers there (im paraphrasing here from memory). But the point is, not everyone is an expert or even very good at their job.
Another point to consider would be that people do spread a lot of misinformation and it can be deliberate for causing confusion or just to be bombastic. Some "facts" are just given for public consumption as well so must be taken with a grain of salt. It can also play into the realm of, everything we have is great and we are the best at using it while whatever the enemy has is crap and they don't know how to use it anyways (we see a lot of this in these forums as well).
 
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OPLOT will be a real contender to the upgraded T90 bhishm from IA (will outmatch most likely).

Conventionally, pakistan leaves a lot to be desired but this would be the decider since they do manage a large army especially Tank regiment compared to their size. PA leaves no stone unturned for themselves in most cases so I think they can purchase OPLOT.

Downside will be that it definitely won't come with ToT which should be acceptable since pakistan has no experience or intentions to make a new one.
 
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Isn't it time we stop lying because enemy is literally at the gates.
Like in any profession, there are some people better at their jobs then others. While we have some excellent cadre in the officer corp, not all PA officers are of high caliber. I have met a lot of serving officers, some of them don't even know about other equipment fielded by our own military. Others are far behind in the technical or education realms. So when looking at a source it is always better to be critical of the information being received. This reminds me of a chapter from a book by Brian Cloughley (I think) talking about Zarb-e-momin exercises where he along with some other foreign observers went to see and talk to some of the officers participating. He mentions that at one point an artillery officer said with much pride that they only need to say Allah-o-Akbar in order to hit the enemies with accurate fire, much to the embarrassment of some other senior officers there (im paraphrasing here from memory). But the point is, not everyone is an expert or even very good at their job.
Another point to consider would be that people do spread a lot of misinformation and it can be deliberate for causing confusion or just to be bombastic. Some "facts" are just given for public consumption as well so must be taken with a grain of salt. It can also play into the realm of, everything we have is great and we are the best at using it while whatever the enemy has is crap and they don't know how to use it anyways (we see a lot of this in these forums as well).
 
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@LeGenD
Undoubtedly M1A1 and following series of Abrams are a beauty and i have no objection to admit that its not....... and yes a t59 cannot match an m1A1 abram.... and i believe that during late 80's our target was to have a plant for M1A1 in pakistan but M1 with 105mm (was never our requirment) as t72 was already outgunning with its high caliber gun...... But again as US would have provided the tank without uranium armour (Chobham) as they are doing with iraq and many other countries......
I totally agree with you as there is no comparison in crew safety features and their comfort.... M1A1 is a generation apart..........
 
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@Signalian

That thread contains ample evidence of sheer naivety and lack of understanding of these matters in Pakistan. Instead of learning, some of you prefer to bury your hand in the sand.

As @KAI KAI Baloch pointed out, the unit that was dispatched for trials in Pakistan was not on par with original M1A1 specifications and Pakistan did not had infrastructure to incorporate it. I am cool with this.

However, it is really foolish to formulate an opinion about the capability of American tanks on the basis of what happened in Pakistan. Much has changed since, and the entire world bear witness to performance of M1A1 in the battlefield and its evolution over the course of years.

An officer asserting that Type-59 is better than M1A1 in an interview, reflects poorly on his awareness and exposure. M1A1 demonstrated complete superiority over Type-59 and other contemporaries in the battlefield in 1991, and this is irrefutable. The wealth of information I provide in my posts is for the purpose of addressing misconceptions and making people aware of actual realities.

If an officer tells you that Earth is flat, will you believe it? Officers are human beings and they tend to be specialized in their roles and use of arms. They don't have a PhD degree or something. Keep this fact in mind.

Learn from the post of @GriffinsRule
 
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@Signalian

That thread contains ample evidence of sheer naivety and lack of understanding of these matters in Pakistan. Instead of learning, some of you prefer to bury your hand in the sand.

As @KAI KAI Baloch pointed out, the unit that was dispatched for trials in Pakistan was not on par with original M1A1 specifications and Pakistan did not had infrastructure to incorporate it. I am cool with this.

However, it is really foolish to formulate an opinion about the capability of American tanks on the basis of what happened in Pakistan. Much has changed since, and the entire world bear witness to performance of M1A1 in the battlefield and its evolution over the course of years.

An officer asserting that Type-59 is better than M1A1 in an interview, reflects poorly on his awareness and exposure. M1A1 demonstrated complete superiority over Type-59 and other contemporaries in the battlefield in 1991, and this is irrefutable. The wealth of information I provide in my posts is for the purpose of addressing misconceptions and making people aware of actual realities.

If an officer tells you that Earth is flat, will you believe it? Officers are human beings and they tend to be specialized in their roles and use of arms. They don't have a PhD degree or something. Keep this fact in mind.

Learn from the post of @GriffinsRule

I have read the sheer nonsense in your pointless posts already, similar to the way you tried your utmost to comprehend the trails with no sense of direction 2 years back.
Your obsession with this M1 topic is evident as you are trying your best to derail this VT-4 thread into a new discussion. Also, your lack of understanding of Pakistan Army is reflected by the fact that you are trying to prove a Serving Military officer wrong who gave a statement on National TV.

That military officer is not the only saying that M-1 dismal firing report. The following narratives tell about M1 Abrams missing targets.

In the book, a case of exploding mangoes, the writer gives the whole narrative:
m1 trial.jpg


A book by James farwell, The Pakistan cauldron, chapter 8.

m1 trials 2.jpg


@LeGenD

I can dig more out, if i keep searching but i am already satisfied with the word of a military officer. Don't bother me anymore on this topic.
 
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