Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[mudas777]

Strictly speaking, the "JF-17 approach" would be signing onto the T625 and T629. It's the same 6-ton platform for both utility and an attack helicopter (for which we got an official invite into the utility side). Compared to the 10-ton program (ATAK-2), it would be more affordable, and the utility platform could be inducted more widely in military and civilian applications (including civilian users).

We ought to make a start in the helicopter field and how long we are going to wait to do so. Our approach to defence procurements/production have been shambolic to say the least at times. One of the largest army in the world can't even produces their own modern assault guns. One can slat me as much as you like but facts speak for themselves and give me the reasons of economy performing badly. If we can't make our own then what we are expecting to equip our forces with depend on others and take dictation from them. One produces their own equipment and sell to others and it balances out the cost factors. We really ought to raise the flag of made in Pakistan first otherwise what ever we buys from others minimum 20 to 40% should be made in Pakistan on TOT basis and there should be no compromise on this approach. We bitten few times by the US F 16 saga and someone made the right decision to make our own plane and that gave us the JF 17 and look where are we now, hence same is required in the helicopter field. Time and world is not waiting for us and the leaders we select are always going to let us down and fill there coffers abroad and I don't see things changing on that front and circular debt always is circling around our necks as we refuse to do any thing and produce basically as minimal as possible even when we are pushed.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Yeah when I first started advocating for this all the typical Pakistani PDFers were like ohh we don't have "requirement"...ooh we don't have resources...oh we are not gora...only gora can sell us multi million dollar machines and make money off of us.

Seriously our tri services combined have hundreds of helicopter of different makes and models. PN is flying SeaKings, PAF Mi17s, AW139s and PAA don't even get me started Pumas, Cougars, Mi17s etc. Moreover all 3 still stuck with Alouettes and Lamas of days gone upto some extent but being slowly phased out.

Militaries far less smaller than ours are making same class of helos and selling them in both civ-mil roles and making money.

But good things are happening in Turk helo industry and very rapidly so. If PAC wants their defensive capabilities and their profits to soar they should sign up with TAI. There onwards set up our own helo industry and become the pioneer.

need a Jf-17 approach to helicopter project.

Strictly speaking, the "JF-17 approach" would be signing onto the T625 and T629. It's the same 6-ton platform for both utility and an attack helicopter (for which we got an official invite into the utility side). Compared to the 10-ton program (ATAK-2), it would be more affordable, and the utility platform could be inducted more widely in military and civilian applications (including civilian users).

@cabatli_53 few days ago came across AW/Leonardo testing out a tilt rotor prototype knowing that Italians/AW/Leonardo work closely with TAI. Is there a chance of us potentially seeing a Turk medium or heavy lift titlrotor??

Check out the thread I posted.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/tilt-rotors-and-their-potential-for-pakmil.650102/#post-12027957

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

We ought to make a start in the helicopter field and how long we are going to wait to do so. Our approach to defence procurements/production have been shambolic to say the least at times. One of the largest army in the world can't even produces their own modern assault guns. One can slat me as much as you like but facts speak for themselves and give me the reasons of economy performing badly. If we can't make our own then what we are expecting to equip our forces with depend on others and take dictation from them. One produces their own equipment and sell to others and it balances out the cost factors. We really ought to raise the flag of made in Pakistan first otherwise what ever we buys from others minimum 20 to 40% should be made in Pakistan on TOT basis and there should be no compromise on this approach. We bitten few times by the US F 16 saga and someone made the right decision to make our own plane and that gave us the JF 17 and look where are we now, hence same is required in the helicopter field. Time and world is not waiting for us and the leaders we select are always going to let us down and fill there coffers abroad and I don't see things changing on that front and circular debt always is circling around our necks as we refuse to do any thing and produce basically as minimal as possible even when we are pushed.

Do u have money for this ideas, have any idea how expensive TOT works are?

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

We successfully started a fighter program through a JV even when we had nothing and were under sanctions. Where there is a will there is a way.

Do u have money for this ideas, have any idea how expensive TOT works are?

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

We successfully started a fighter program through a JV even when we had nothing and were under sanctions. Where there is a will there is a way.

What you say is valid for the Chinese. Western origin products are not very valid in this case.

 

[cabatli_53]

Yeah when I first started advocating for this all the typical Pakistani PDFers were like ohh we don't have "requirement"...ooh we don't have resources...oh we are not gora...only gora can sell us multi million dollar machines and make money off of us.

Seriously our tri services combined have hundreds of helicopter of different makes and models. PN is flying SeaKings, PAF Mi17s, AW139s and PAA don't even get me started Pumas, Cougars, Mi17s etc. Moreover all 3 still stuck with Alouettes and Lamas of days gone upto some extent but being slowly phased out.

Militaries far less smaller than ours are making same class of helos and selling them in both civ-mil roles and making money.

But good things are happening in Turk helo industry and very rapidly so. If PAC wants their defensive capabilities and their profits to soar they should sign up with TAI. There onwards set up our own helo industry and become the pioneer.




@cabatli_53 few days ago came across AW/Leonardo testing out a tilt rotor prototype knowing that Italians/AW/Leonardo work closely with TAI. Is there a chance of us potentially seeing a Turk medium or heavy lift titlrotor??

Check out the thread I posted.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/tilt-rotors-and-their-potential-for-pakmil.650102/#post-12027957

SSB head had openly told that Tiltrotor technology is inside our new targets in conference and the year was in 2016. Until today, I haven’t met any official research or publishment about this technology. Who knows They will maybe reveal some design elements when technology get matured a little more.

http://www.kokpit.aero/milli-tiltrotor-ssm

 

[Beast]

We successfully started a fighter program through a JV even when we had nothing and were under sanctions. Where there is a will there is a way.

No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?

The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.

Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.

 

[araz]

No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?

The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.

Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.

We are slowly building the requisite capacity. There are a lot of steps to become an aviation product maker and PAC has slowly been jumping all the hoops. JFT remains a joint project so as per plans newer blocks were tested in China. However before testing initial flights may well have taken place in PAC as my understanding is that the final assembly of block 3 was on going at PAC. I could be totally wrong so feel free to correct me. There is no loss of face in learning from our Iron brothers as you have helped us take the baby steps in this field.
A

 

[Beast]

We are slowly building the requisite capacity. There are a lot of steps to become an aviation product maker and PAC has slowly been jumping all the hoops. JFT remains a joint project so as per plans newer blocks were tested in China. However before testing initial flights may well have taken place in PAC as my understanding is that the final assembly of block 3 was on going at PAC. I could be totally wrong so feel free to correct me. There is no loss of face in learning from our Iron brothers as you have helped us take the baby steps in this field.
A

China are more than happy to try handover everything of JF-17 to Pakistan and we can concentrate on our J-10 , J-31 and J-20 project. But to attain real full capabilities, a huge pool of facilities needed to be invested. For example, wind tunnel. We are not talking about small size ,lower speed one but fighter plane size wind tunnel which can gives good amount of analysis data for jets flying under Mach 2 speed.

That is the reason why AVIC still need to undertake the design and testing phase of JF-17 as there are no such facilities in Pakistan.

 

[python-000]

Do u have money for this ideas, have any idea how expensive TOT works are?

why we (Pakistan Turkey China & Russia) can not joint venture about this issue...

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Closed Allies need to shake hands together to compete and get out of influence posed by few countries

 

[ARMalik]

No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?

The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.

Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.

Yea as if you Chinese figured out all the Western tech yourselves by day dreaming. Only a couple of decades ago You people didn't even know the basic stuff, like what Military Cataloging and Stocking Systems were, which Pakistan taught you, and here you are talking as if you know it all.

 

[Dazzler]

No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?

The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.

Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.

You have your own delusions mate. Carry on with it.

 

[Beast]

You have your own delusions mate. Carry on with it.

Really? Maybe you can provide some facts.

 

[Dazzler]

Really? Maybe you can provide some facts.

Yeah sure, for starters, go figure who wrote the software and helped design the first HUD unit of hardware of the F-7M airguard. Chinese couldnt back in the day.