Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[SQ8]

@Oscar

I think we were all expecting it to go through. Hopefully they are able to find a AAM solution for the ATAK to be truly an all round threat to both armour and low flying helicopters on the battlefield.

A wing mounted igla launcher would go a long way.

 

[AKINCI]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1017757505726894082

Cost of contract is 1.5 billion $.
First chopper will be delivered 3-4 months later.
Turkey has become 4th attack helicopter exporter in the world.
T-129 has become quickest exported attack helicopter according to entrance date of service.

I hope that they will serve well for brother Pakistan Army.

 

[OguzSenturk]

Atak can carry stinger under it's wings for AA missions

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think we were all expecting it to go through. Hopefully they are able to find a AAM solution for the ATAK to be truly an all round threat to both armour and low flying helicopters on the battlefield.

A wing mounted igla launcher would go a long way.

Denel had fitted the A-Darter to the Rooivalk.

If we pick-up the A-Darter for the JF-17, could add it for the ATAK too (scale, justify local production of the AAM).

 

[SQ8]

Denel had fitted the A-Darter to the Rooivalk.

If we pick-up the A-Darter for the JF-17, could add it for the ATAK too (scale, justify local production of the AAM).

The roolivak was a pretty heavy lifting chopper.. whether the stubby wings on the ATAK could take this load is debatable.

 

[OguzSenturk]

First chopper will be delivered 3-4 months later.

If so, these babies will enjoy Pakistan airspace after 3-4 months

 

[Indus Pakistan]

truly an all round threat to both armour and low flying helicopters on the battlefield.

Let's accept the reality. These or other choppers with PA will not face any armour or heli threats. The only place where this could happen is on the eastern front against India. Such a scenario is highly unlikely with the nuclear deterant in place and if things went pear shaped then given India's massive numbers the matter would be resolved by nukes. Not few Ataks helis.

However theses choppers will go straight into action to tackle insurgencies. Something the Turks have similar experiance against PKK in much similiar geography to what we have on our western regions. I expect these choppers will help secure CPEC in Balochistan and provide the muscle on the Durand Line etc. For that they are ideal.

 

[SQ8]

Let's accept the reality. These or other choppers with PA will not face any armour or heli threats. The only place where this could happen is on the eastern front against India. Such a scenario is highly unlikely with the nuclear deterant in place and if things went pear shaped then given India's massive numbers the matter would be resolved by nukes. Not few Ataks helis.

However theses choppers will go straight into action to tackle insurgencies. Something the Turks have similar experiance against PKK in much similiar geography to what we have on our western regions. I expect these choppers will help secure CPEC in Balochistan and provide the muscle on the Durand Line etc. For that they are ideal.

We rely on the nuke threat too much sometimes.

 

[Armchair]

I hope they buy some JF-17s in lieu of the T-129s. quid pro quo. Why not F-16s? - Turkey cannot actually produce F-16s, it needs most critical parts from the US including Knocked down kits. Also, has had issues with bugs and back door security concerns.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We rely on the nuke threat too much sometimes

Because that is the only thing that stops the billion plus horde on our east from crossing the Radcliffe Line. You hardly think that the fleet of outdated tanks, fleet of even more outdated M113 APCs, few F-16s are holding India back do you? The reality is nukes are Pakistan's first and last line of defence. Rest is just glitter and for show.

In personal training there are two things that matter. Strength and endurance. Meaning you got to have the staying power. Even if you overlook the massive disparity in conventional forces in India's favour Pakistan would not be able to sustain a war longer then 28 days. Fuel would run out. Money would run out. Ummphh. Gone. spent.

Thus the shield, the only shield that keeps India at bay is the nuke shield. Not out outdated collection of junk. However Pakistan as you know faces multiple internal threats from insurgencies. That is the real threat that is gnawing away at Pakistan to the point it has scared away investment. CPEC is a lifeline. These Atak choppers wil;l give Pakistan a ideal platform to go after these insurgent threats.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Because that is the only thing that stops the billion plus horde on our east from crossing the Radcliffe Line. You hardly think that the fleet of outdated tanks, fleet of even more outdated M113 APCs, few F-16s are holding India back do you? The reality is nukes are Pakistan's first and last line of defence. Rest is just glitter and for show.

In personal training there are two things that matter. Strength and endurance. Meaning you got to have the staying power. Even if you overlook the massive disparity in conventional forces in India's favour Pakistan would not be able to sustain a war longer then 28 days. Fuel would run out. Money would run out. Ummphh. Gone. spent.

Thus the shield, the only shield that keeps India at bay is the nuke shield. Not out outdated collection of junk. However Pakistan as you know faces multiple internal threats from insurgencies. That is the real threat that is gnawing away at Pakistan to the point it has scared away investment. CPEC is a lifeline. These Atak choppers wil;l give Pakistan a ideal platform to go after these insurgent threats.

The issue isn't only that the nukes would stop them, but that when one relies purely on nukes, they come off as a pariah (albeit, in Pakistan's case an even bigger pariah) and the risk where India 'calls the bluff' and you fail to do anything because you're afraid to cross lines. With conventional deterrence, you can deter -- or at least interdict -- adventures and throw the spotlight back onto the enemy for being not just an aggressor, but a failed aggressor (e.g. think of the PAF's very first kill).

 

[SQ8]

Because that is the only thing that stops the billion plus horde on our east from crossing the Radcliffe Line. You hardly think that the fleet of outdated tanks, fleet of even more outdated M113 APCs, few F-16s are holding India back do you? The reality is nukes are Pakistan's first and last line of defence. Rest is just glitter and for show.

In personal training there are two things that matter. Strength and endurance. Meaning you got to have the staying power. Even if you overlook the massive disparity in conventional forces in India's favour Pakistan would not be able to sustain a war longer then 28 days. Fuel would run out. Money would run out. Ummphh. Gone. spent.

Thus the shield, the only shield that keeps India at bay is the nuke shield. Not out outdated collection of junk. However Pakistan as you know faces multiple internal threats from insurgencies. That is the real threat that is gnawing away at Pakistan to the point it has scared away investment. CPEC is a lifeline. These Atak choppers wil;l give Pakistan a ideal platform to go after these insurgent threats.

There is no doubting the intent of the enemy. But are we neglecting that they aren’t working day and night to try and remove the nuke barrier that keeps them from carrying this out?

The ATAKs are coming for an insurgency that is all wrapped up as such. The actual effort now lies in urban areas and in other placed where religious extremism infects us.. everyone has one nutcase cousin or uncle or friend now; no ATAK will fix that problem using its cannons.. as it will only create more nutcases.

The true focus of all weapons will always be the east.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There is no doubting the intent of the enemy. But are we neglecting that they aren’t working day and night to try and remove the nuke barrier that keeps them from carrying this out?

The ATAKs are coming for an insurgency that is all wrapped up as such. The actual effort now lies in urban areas and in other placed where religious extremism infects us.. everyone has one nutcase cousin or uncle or friend now; no ATAK will fix that problem using its cannons.. as it will only create more nutcases.

The true focus of all weapons will always be the east.

Besides the validated high-altitude ops capability of the ATAK (decent for interdicting a surgical strike along the LOC if a few are stationed in the area with an air assault unit w/light commandos), this deal could also open up the route of PAC-Turkish Aerospace cooperation on the ATAK-2. The weight of the ATAK-2 will be closer to the AH-1Z and, potentially, space for a top-rotor mmW radar.

In fact, it'd be nice if PAC could join the ATAK-2 and the 10-ton general transport helicopter, the latter can gradually replace the Sea King, Puma and Mi-171 (over a period of decades, of course).

 

[Army research]

Besides the validated high-altitude ops capability of the ATAK (decent for interdicting a surgical strike along the LOC if a few are stationed in the area with an air assault unit w/light commandos), this deal could also open up the route of PAC-Turkish Aerospace cooperation on the ATAK-2. The weight of the ATAK-2 will be closer to the AH-1Z and, potentially, space for a top-rotor mmW radar.

In fact, it'd be nice if PAC could join the ATAK-2 and the 10-ton general transport helicopter, the latter can gradually replace the Sea King, Puma and Mi-171 (over a period of decades, of course).

Hopefully after learning from swat ops and western mountain geography airborne ops,
I wish to see light commando or new roumered airborne force , to perform ops in Kashmir
Having personally seen the front lines,
I believe the mountains would provide cover from enemy anti air and aircraft,
Night time ops paf establishes temporary air superiority over a limited region ,
A battalion or even 2 company sized heli borne terrain hugging force takes off, accompanied by 4-5 attack heli and possibly some transports are armed too ( MI35) , land behind enemy mountain front line , attack a frontline from behind where there is no fortification, or attack a supply depot,
If a hole is made in the loc, rush forces in the keep attacking the Indians from behind there lines and exploit the gap ,
This might be wishful thinking but I believe it is possible in the short term ,
Large scale grand operations could follow the same general outlay but with brigade sized forces with cargoed anti tank systems manpads etc,
Right now launching a frontal invasion by India or Pakistan on LOC is suicidal

 

[SQ8]

Besides the validated high-altitude ops capability of the ATAK (decent for interdicting a surgical strike along the LOC if a few are stationed in the area with an air assault unit w/light commandos), this deal could also open up the route of PAC-Turkish Aerospace cooperation on the ATAK-2. The weight of the ATAK-2 will be closer to the AH-1Z and, potentially, space for a top-rotor mmW radar.

In fact, it'd be nice if PAC could join the ATAK-2 and the 10-ton general transport helicopter, the latter can gradually replace the Sea King, Puma and Mi-171 (over a period of decades, of course).

What Pakistan needs is a mmW guided Fire and Forget system for aircraft much like the Brimstone. That capability will greately increase our CAS capability which right now is ancient in modern terms.

A 4 ship package of JF-17s armed with an asymmetric combination of LD-10, SD-10 and racks of brimstone class weapon can lay waste to an entire armoured column and its AD assets while still pushing away their air cover.

These are not expensive capabilities as such but require a bit of astute program management along with smarter fund allocation..