Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Alex John]

All the helicopters operates from air bases but does that means that even in war time they will continue to do so ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yeah, but you're not the only one. Here's official statement by TEI the developer of turboshaft engine. Just so everyone gets the idea, Turkish engine is a no go for T-129 ATAK-I. Maybe for ATAK-II it'll be available, but even then I don't see first prototype airframes of ATAK-II using Turkish engines. My timeframe was way off too btw, 8 year development period so 2025 should be current deadline on development, like you mentioned certification period for platforms take time too..

For several projects that have been recently launched by Turkey and are still underway including Original Light Utility Helicopter, ATAK Helicopter and Turkish Utility Helicopter, thrust systems are procured from foreign sources. The Turboshaft Engine Development Project (TEDP) aims to decrease this dependence on foreign sources while enabling domestic production of the engine systems, which constitute one of the most important components of these projects, and increasing the percentage of indigenous production in these projects. In this context,Turboshaft Engine Development Project has officially iniated on 07 February 2017.

The project will be carried out under the leadership of Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (UDI) Sub-Systems Department, under which design, development and testing infrastructure for as turbine engines will be generated in our country on one hand, and the 1400 shp original and national engine with the applicable type certificate will be developed by TEI in order to be integrated into the Original Helicopter, on the other hand.

Turboshaft Engine Development Project will be carried out for 8 years by a team of approximately 250 engineers all of whom are TEI employees serving at TEI's Engineering Offices in Eskisehir, Ankara and Istanbul.

Any future derivatives of the engine may be utilized to power the national platforms such as ATAK and HURKUS. Moreover; core technology of the engine will form the basis for the engine needed for "National Training/Fighter Aircraft - T/FX", and it will be possible to develop the national aircraft engine when needed, upon any necessary technological additions to the capabilities gained under Turboshaft Engine Development Project .

https://www.tei.com.tr/detay/turboshaft-engine-development-project

I would also like to add that it is very possible that Turkey is emphasizing development of such engines so that engine supplying countries 'industry politics' are more hesitant on Turkey acquiring technology to develop engines, so less likely to embargo sales of engines to third party countries.


Turkey also has an ambition to develop an indigenous high-output turboshaft engine, and LHTEC has already held discussions with the nation's SSM defence industries under-secretariat about its potential involvement, says Thraen.

“The national engine project is very interesting to us and we definitely have an interest in getting involved in that and supporting it in some way,” he added.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lhtec-aims-for-turkish-assembly-of-cts800-engine-425330/



If you have the technology and the knowledge, more countries respect you in that sphere and want to cooperate just so they still have their fingers in the pie.

IMO the only alternative engine can be a non-ITAR version of the CTS800 made by RR. Otherwise, the PAA had selected and wants the T129 with the current engine (key to the good hot and high performance).

 

[python-000]

 

[Dreamer.]

So these TAI T-129 will be made in Pakistan after TOT?? and after getting 30 from Turkey Pakistan can build more locally???

Yes, just like we built more Agostas after getting TOT for the Agosta90B.

 

[SQ8]

IMO the only alternative engine can be a non-ITAR version of the CTS800 made by RR. Otherwise, the PAA had selected and wants the T129 with the current engine (key to the good hot and high performance).

I think we made too much of the engine issue, it wont be a stickler as much as it is assumed when it comes to export approval.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think we made too much of the engine issue, it wont be a stickler as much as it is assumed when it comes to export approval.

I agree. Thus far, there hasn't been any sign of the DoD clamping down on third-party sales of ITAR equipment to Pakistan (outside of the stuff that's particularly sensitive). The LHTEC CTS800 would basically fall into that.

But the PAA did state it wants depot-level MRO for the next mainstay attack helicopter (i.e. T129). So it'll be interesting to see if they could get a CTS800 MRO site up at PAC and, more importantly, how much work they can absorb there in the long-run.

 

[Zarvan]

I agree. Thus far, there hasn't been any sign of the DoD clamping down on third-party sales of ITAR equipment to Pakistan (outside of the stuff that's particularly sensitive). The LHTEC CTS800 would basically fall into that.

But the PAA did state it wants depot-level MRO for the next mainstay attack helicopter (i.e. T129). So it'll be interesting to see if they could get a CTS800 MRO site up at PAC and, more importantly, how much work they can absorb there in the long-run.

Which engine is being used by Italian attack helicopter and do they have better European engine which we can fit in T-129 ???

 

[HAIDER]

Pakistan under unofficial US weapon embargo . No AH 1Z. The T129 attack helicopter, developed by TAI under license from the Finmeccanica company AgustaWestland, is powered by the LHTEC CTS800, the commercial and export version of the T800 turboshaft rotary aircraft engine made by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between UK-based Rolls-Royce and US-based Honeywell.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Which engine is being used by Italian attack helicopter and do they have better European engine which we can fit in T-129 ???

The A129 uses an older RR turboshaft engine, but that's way under-powered (which is why Turkey went for the LHTEC-equipped version in the first place). Going for some other European engine will reset the entire cycle by a few years: i.e. integration, testing, certification and then evaluations. There'll also be an added cost to bringing in a new engine. Basically, the idea that the T129 can use a different engine is not happening. The alternative (if not Z-10) would be to wait for the ATAK-2 with TEI's turboshaft engine or for a non-ITAR (i.e. no US parts) version of the existing engine by UK's Rolls-Royce.

 

[SQ8]

I agree. Thus far, there hasn't been any sign of the DoD clamping down on third-party sales of ITAR equipment to Pakistan (outside of the stuff that's particularly sensitive). The LHTEC CTS800 would basically fall into that.

But the PAA did state it wants depot-level MRO for the next mainstay attack helicopter (i.e. T129). So it'll be interesting to see if they could get a CTS800 MRO site up at PAC and, more importantly, how much work they can absorb there in the long-run.

If I am not mistaken we already have a depot level facility for Allison and even for certain PW products. So I see no hurdles here; additionally, the LhTeC engine isn’t a military specific engine and is dual use so it can pass under the nose. Unless the very venomous Indian Lobby decides to act against it and then is able to garner enough support against Turkey.

 

[Zulfiqar]

Is there a picture of T 129 carrying 8 ATGMs? Please do share. I havent seen one yet.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If I am not mistaken we already have a depot level facility for Allison and even for certain PW products. So I see no hurdles here; additionally, the LhTeC engine isn’t a military specific engine and is dual use so it can pass under the nose. Unless the very venomous Indian Lobby decides to act against it and then is able to garner enough support against Turkey.

LHTEC isn't just the US, the UK is involved too.

I think we've made some OK traction in the UK via the AW139s (AgustaWestland), Selex Seaspray AESA radars and the Kelvin Hughes SharpEye. It's not big stuff, but the cumulative value is approaching $500 m. We can push the value up further if we source Selex radars for the MILGEM and Damen OPVs.

On top of that, the UK also revived the MoU (for defence purchases et. al) and we have some OK soft credibility across the board with the government and armed forces. So we can work with Rolls-Royce for the MRO site.

But let's say we're a no-body; in that case, the UK can't screw it up for Turkey. It has big multi-billion dollar opportunities at-stake in Turkey, esp. related to the TFX. It'd make zero sense to jeopardize the T129 sale when Rolls-Royce can be a direct beneficiary by selling a MRO site to PAC as well.

 

[SQ8]

LHTEC isn't just the US, the UK is involved too.

I think we've made some OK traction in the UK via the AW139s (AgustaWestland), Selex Seaspray AESA radars and the Kelvin Hughes SharpEye. It's not big stuff, but the cumulative value is approaching $500 m. We can push the value up further if we source Selex radars for the MILGEM and Damen OPVs.

On top of that, the UK also revived the MoU (for defence purchases et. al) and we have some OK soft credibility across the board with the government and armed forces. So we can work with Rolls-Royce for the MRO site.

But let's say we're a no-body; in that case, the UK can't screw it up for Turkey. It has big multi-billion dollar opportunities at-stake in Turkey, esp. related to the TFX. It'd make zero sense to jeopardize the T129 sale when Rolls-Royce can be a direct beneficiary by selling a MRO site to PAC as well.

That is the actual advantage we have. Big ticket projects like the TFx ensure that suppliers will still bend over for the Turks; and hence we have now a third party supply source for our needs.

 

[dBSPL]

Is there a picture of T 129 carrying 8 ATGMs? Please do share. I havent seen one yet.

Maximum capacity of the T129Bx helicopter underwing pylons 4 x 661lb (4 x 300 kg)
For example LAU61 with 19 hydra rocket, the total weight is around 480lb. It is about the same weight as the 4 Umtas + launcher. The total weapon load can change by the profile of the task required, the duration of the mission required, the task altitude profile, as well as many variables. However, CIRIT is a much more cost-effective solution against the light armored targets and asymetric targets.

 

[Zulfiqar]

Maximum capacity of the T129Bx helicopter underwing pylons 4 x 661lb (4 x 300 kg)
For example LAU61 with 19 hydra rocket, the total weight is around 480lb. It is about the same weight as the 4 Umtas + launcher. The total weapon load can change by the profile of the task required, the duration of the mission required, the task altitude profile, as well as many variables. However, CIRIT is a much more cost-effective solution against the light armored targets and asymetric targets.

Can you clarify? How many ATGMs can be loaded up on each side in Anti tank profile?