Pakistan army says US scapegoating

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Really? Lecturing or not, it would be foolish to ignore which way the winds are blowing in Washington regarding Pakistan.

It matters a LOT to Pakistan, trust me on that. Unless of course, you think that such bravado can be backed up with something more tangible than mere words.

must be backed up by actions


i.e. accountability and sound governance in Pakistan, a unified front where govt. and the common people (who would hopefully pay taxes & elect people who aren't crooks) see at least somewhat eye to eye (190m wont agree on everything).....that is a sound enough "defence" (in absence of better words)


i (admittedly rudely) pounced on you last week, Cheng, because i feel you want to maintain a bad status-quo.....leave Pakistan a sub-servient state that RELIES on the U.S.

no Pakistani with dignity and honour wants to see Pakistan be a master's slave........this slave mentality of some people inside and outside of our country gets me fuming. As a Pashtun, I don't tolerate it at all.


dignity NOT for sale

 

[VCheng]

must be backed up by actions


i.e. accountability and sound governance in Pakistan, a unified front where govt. and the common people (who would hopefully pay taxes & elect people who aren't crooks).....that is a sound enough "defence" (in absence of better words)

Accountability, good governance and unity of purpose - all things essential for any country. But those must be created from within Pakistan by Pakistanis themselves. It would be wrong to blame anyone else for these persistent deficiencies.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Accountability, good governance and unity of purpose - all things essential for any country. But those must be created from within Pakistan by Pakistanis themselves. It would be wrong to blame anyone else for these persistent deficiencies.

Pakistanis keep electing crooks and liars.....so it will take time

hopefully these very "happening" past few years will wake the people up.....HOPEFULLY


if Pakistani havent woken up at this point, then they deserve Zardari

 

[VCheng]

Pakistanis keep electing crooks and liars.....so it will take time

hopefully these very "happening" past few years will wake the people up.....HOPEFULLY


if Pakistani havent woken up at this point, then they deserve Zardari

Agreed.

My biggest fear is that there may not be much time left to work on these huge tasks.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Really? Lecturing or not, it would be foolish to ignore which way the winds are blowing in Washington regarding Pakistan.

It matters a LOT to Pakistan, trust me on that. Unless of course, you think that such bravado can be backed up with something more tangible than mere words.

I am referring to us, the ordinary pakistanis, what the corrupt leaders think is not my business.

We ordinary Pakistanis give a shiet about what the US thinks and wants.

 

[VCheng]

...............
i (admittedly rudely) pounced on you last week, Cheng, because i feel you want to maintain a bad status-quo.....leave Pakistan a sub-servient state that RELIES on the U.S.

no Pakistani with dignity and honour wants to see Pakistan be a master's slave........this slave mentality of some people inside and outside of our country gets me fuming. As a Pashtun, I don't tolerate it at all.


dignity NOT for sale

I agree with what you say here, except that I do NOT want to maintain the present asymmetric status quo that exists to Pakistan's disadvantage.

But to regain the national dignity lost will take more than merely fuming and getting angry and resentful. My only difference with you (and Asim and others) is I advocate quiet hard work instead of empty hot words, and keeping one's cool in an unfair world.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

okay, point very well taken

define "quiet hard work"

 

[Solomon2]

But those must be created from within Pakistan by Pakistanis themselves.

Why not by Pakistanis outside Pakistan? Or do you deny that the MQM, whose leader is in the UK, is a legitimate movement?

 

[VCheng]

I am referring to us, the ordinary pakistanis, what the corrupt leaders think is not my business.

We ordinary Pakistanis give a shiet about what the US thinks and wants.

I understand, but do you care about things like electricity and education and healthcare and food and water and roads and law and order? Your corrupt leaders will fly away if and when the shi1t does hit the fan and then ordinary people will have no choice but to care about dealing with the consequences.

I hope the people like you and me can help avoid that from happening.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Can you be more specific? As I've been trying to teach here, there is a difference between what things are and what they are called. To avoid delusion one must distinguish between the two, which means considering evidence, proofs, and contexts.

That's the rub, isn't it? That compared to Pakistan many other countries, like the U.S. and Israel, do indeed have their house in better order.

I just gave you the proof & facts, you deployed less soldiers to control a big Afghanistan from which terror came to the US, but to capture oil to put in 3 times more effort. You lied to the UNSC to wage war and occupy a country and in due process killed hundred of thousands people. What you have deployed in Afghanistan, we have deployed much more then that in an area which is hardly a few percent in area compared to Afghanistan. We have lost more men compared to what you guys have, we have sustained much more damage then what you have. You are supporting a puppet inplace of a true democracy for your own use. You are directly and indirectly paying the Taliban who are waging the war. You have emptied your border posts right when we launch operations on this side and the taliban pass the borders and live happily in Afghanistan. You emptied Kunar and Nooristan right when we were at the end phase of operations in bajaur and all the taliban are now living peacefully in those areas and have killed dozens of soldiers and civilians in cross border attacks. When we asked for drone coverage and strikes in SW at the time of our operation you guys refused, while you kept the attacks in NW, and not supported us.

How much more proof and facts do you need more.

 

[VCheng]

okay, point very well taken

define "quiet hard work"

Rather than taking up a lot of space, all I will suggest here is to please read about how the Japanese rose from the destruction of WW2 to become an economic powerhouse in a few short decades, for pointers.

Even now, things are not as bad for Pakistan as they were for Japan, so it should be quicker for Pakistan than that, but only if the right lessons are learned and implemented.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I understand, but do you care about things like electricity and education and healthcare and food and water and roads and law and order? Your corrupt leaders will fly away if and when the shi1t does hit the fan and then ordinary people will have no choice but to care about dealing with the consequences.

I hope the people like you and me can help avoid that from happening.

Well i do hope that such a things happens as once these corrupt ones go away, may be then we can learn and stand on our own feet.

Sometimes nations take a plunge before they again learn to stand. Lot of nations were in their worst time period and now they are civilized nations.

Why not by Pakistanis outside Pakistan? Or do you deny that the MQM, whose leader is in the UK, is a legitimate movement?

a movement which is run by a person who sits and hides aborad and runs a dictatorship and doesn't lets anyone come to a position to threaten him. Who rules like a dictator and kills if someone takes a stand against him.

 

[VCheng]

Well i do hope that such a things happens as once these corrupt ones go away, may be then we can learn and stand on our own feet.

Sometimes nations take a plunge before they again learn to stand. Lot of nations were in their worst time period and now they are civilized nations.

Agreed, but mere hope will never drive away the corrupt leaders or solve any other problems.

It is the darkest before dawn, so I join you in hoping that a brighter day rises over Pakistan soon.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

how did MQM make its way into this discussion?


well since you brought up MQM - there's one good thing about them. They've been a bit more consistent on their stance against extremism; they've been supportive of army ops in the restive areas......but they've also contributed (played a role) in Karachi violence and another kind of 'militancy'

head of MQM is a British citizen living comfortably in some posh suburb of London......communicates with his followers behind a computer screen and a web-camera.


lets keep on subject and not delve now into political parties bullshyt

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Solomon --- you snide the UN but then label it as enforceable (when developing countries are concerned).......you hold our anti-terror initiatives in contempt, but then seem to quietly back entities in Pakistan that have blood on their hands


well hmmmm, seems PDF has its own iron-fisted mentality "do as you please" dictator -- a dictator without a throne!

 

[Solomon2]

I just gave you the proof & facts, you deployed less soldiers to control a big Afghanistan from which terror came to the US, but to capture oil to put in 3 times more effort.

And I rubbished that when I replied that was like comparing fruits to their peelers and you didn't have a response.

You lied to the UNSC to wage war and occupy a country and in due process killed hundred of thousands people.

You are over-simplifying.

We have lost more men compared to what you guys have, we have sustained much more damage then what you have.

It never entered your mind that Pakistan may be suffering such losses due to incompetent - even disloyal - military leadership, did it?

You are supporting a puppet inplace of a true democracy for your own use. You are directly and indirectly paying the Taliban who are waging the war. You have emptied your border posts right when we launch operations on this side and the taliban pass the borders and live happily in Afghanistan. You emptied Kunar and Nooristan right when we were at the end phase of operations in bajaur and all the taliban are now living peacefully in those areas and have killed dozens of soldiers and civilians in cross border attacks. When we asked for drone coverage and strikes in SW at the time of our operation you guys refused, while you kept the attacks in NW, and not supported us.

These are stronger arguments and you are on firmer ground - even better if you supported it with links. But nothing changes the fact that Pakistan has refused a structure like the WWII U.S.-British Combined Ops which would essentially make Afghan-Pakistan one battle theater and thus clear up militancy in short order.

The reason is, as near as I can tell, that Pakistan's Army wants to preserve "stateless" fighters for its battle against India and as tools to dominate Afghanistan rather than risk it developing into an India-allied state. And it doesn't matter how many civilians and jawans are consumed as cannon fodder in the P.A.'s quest for regional domination: Pakistanis exist to serve their Army, not the other way 'round.

a movement which is run by a person who sits and hides aborad and runs a dictatorship and doesn't lets anyone come to a position to threaten him. Who rules like a dictator and kills if someone takes a stand against him.

Yeah, but it's worked for him for decades. What if people who were real democrats gave it a go?