Pakistan Army | News and Discussions

[SQ8]

Another thing is that when studying military theory/technic I prefer keeping politics and diplomacy away as it creates alot of false hopes, securities and ultimately leads to surprises as seen in 65 and 71. Military planning must be done independent of foreign affairs and only at grand strategic level (national),should both be utilised together.

The whole idea of a military against a larger adversary is technically to prevent war. Otherwise no one has more control over capitalism than a certain Middle East country today- even when it has pretty much pacified all border threats through peace treaties or otherwise; yet it keeps the same sized military it would need to mount offensive operations simultaneously on 2-3 fronts.

Clearly, there is space for ensuring an enemy that even if they think of a military solution it’s not to end pretty for them regardless of the overall outcome.

I wonder why the purchase of Alcotan-100 was so limited?

 

[Dreamer.]

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What tanks are these? T-85s or Alkhalids?

 

[iLION12345_1]

What tanks are these? T-85s or Alkhalids?

Type 85.

Hmm, due to relatively quicker delivery of VT4s, they are being used to replace old regts while AK is being used to raise new ones.
Btw sad to see t59s with such an important inf div(14, Okara) which might be facing the might most of IA mech forces.

Are their any plans in the works to upgrade Inf Div 14th Okara. Possibility of VT4s to quickly arm them as AK's aren't being pumped out fast enough?

All replacements are being done with VT-4s and all type 59s (and 69s) will be replaced. So yes, there’s definitely plans to re-arm this regiment with VT-4. The military would know which regiments need replacing first, in fact it seems there was some sort of intentional throw off going on too
first they put the incoming VT-4s in entirely different regiments and now they’ve sent them all to different ones as needed.

PA needs to both modernize its tank fleet and increase its size to match the IA, that’s why both things are being done at once. there will be at least 2 more regiments raised with the current orders of the AK-1 after which another batch of AK-2 (or improved AK-1) will be ordered to further increase the regiments.

Interestingly the total planned VT-4s exceed the number of Type 59s and 69s in service, which leads me to believe that PA plans for use these VT-4s to either raise new regiments after replacements are done or use them to re-arm regiments that are currently equipped with Al-Zarrars (AZs won’t be retirered. Just moved to less sensitive areas).

All in All, with the upgrades of the Type 85, the rebuilds of the UDs, the induction of AK-1 and then improved AK-1 and the orders of VT4P and then a yet more improved VT-4P, PAs armored core is getting a massive rebuild, and it won’t be the last, they have similar plans for the core of artillery next from what I can tell, I just hope they can sort out the mess with the attack helicopters quickly so these tanks aren’t sitting ducks when the time comes.

 

[Sifar zero]

Type 85.


All replacements are being done with VT-4s and all type 59s (and 69s) will be replaced. So yes, there’s definitely plans to re-arm this regiment with VT-4. The military would know which regiments need replacing first, in fact it seems there was some sort of intentional throw off going on too
first they put the incoming VT-4s in entirely different regiments and now they’ve sent them all to different ones as needed.

PA needs to both modernize its tank fleet and increase its size to match the IA, that’s why both things are being done at once. there will be at least 2 more regiments raised with the current orders of the AK-1 after which another batch of AK-2 (or improved AK-1) will be ordered to further increase the regiments.

Interestingly the total planned VT-4s exceed the number of Type 59s and 69s in service, which leads me to believe that PA plans for use these VT-4s to either raise new regiments after replacements are done or use them to re-arm regiments that are currently equipped with Al-Zarrars (AZs won’t be retirered. Just moved to less sensitive areas).

All in All, with the upgrades of the Type 85, the rebuilds of the UDs, the induction of AK-1 and then improved AK-1 and the orders of VT4P and then a yet more improved VT-4P, PAs armored core is getting a massive rebuild, and it won’t be the last, they have similar plans for the core of artillery next from what I can tell, I just hope they can sort out the mess with the attack helicopters quickly so these tanks aren’t sitting ducks when the time comes.

Please elaborate on VT4P.

 

[Raja Porus]

The whole idea of a military against a larger adversary is technically to prevent war.

That is again at grand strategic level, as I mentioned. However regardless of political and diplomatic developments military planning should be done to prevent any surprises and as a last resort.

I wonder why the purchase of Alcotan-100 was so limited?

Cost. Moreover, AFAIK only Gujranwala Corps was equipped with them.

VT-4s to either raise new regiments after replacements are done or use them to re-arm regiments that are currently equipped with Al-Zarrars (AZs won’t be retirered.

AFAIK VT4s are being used for replacement and is currently replacing 6th armd div. Also I believe AZs will be kept very much on the frontlines, most probably in form of IABGs as they are still better than most of the indian tanks.

 

[iLION12345_1]

That is again at grand strategic level, as I mentioned. However regardless of political and diplomatic developments military planning should be done to prevent any surprises and as a last resort.

Cost. Moreover, AFAIK only Gujranwala Corps was equipped with them.

AFAIK VT4s are being used for replacement and is currently replacing 6th armd div. Also I believe AZs will be kept very much on the frontlines, most probably in form of IABGs as they are still better than most of the indian tanks.

They may not be in those regiments and divisions anymore. That’s what I meant earlier
AZs will definitely be kept in active service, I meant that the VT4s that continue to arrive after the Type 59s and 69s are replaced might replace AZs as well (as in the AZs being sent to other regions/regiments and VT-4s taking over their roles.)

 

[Raja Porus]

They may not be in those regiments and divisions anymore.

I know the particular regts from which they are being transferred as well but on this open forum let's keep it to 6th armd div

 

[iLION12345_1]

Please elaborate on VT4P.

VT-4 is current Gen Chinese export tank, Nigeria and Thailand also bought them.
VT-4P is the Pakistani specific version of it As the original one wasn’t good enough for PA. It’s basically Zameen aasmaan Ka faraq at this point though.

Also the VT-4P currently has two known variants in itself, the first two batches of VT-4P delivered to Pakistan were already massively upgraded, but going off what we know, starting the third batch, even more upgrades have been added. But currently we don’t know what those upgrades in the third batch are.

Compared to normal VT4, the first two batches of the P variant have.

1. Entirely new electro-mechanical stabilization system (for the gun and sights) as the original one was unsatisfactory, this new one is even better than what the Chinese are currently using in their ZTZ-99A.
2. More powerful 1500HP engine, same one as in ZTZ-99A, making the already mobile tank even faster (in fact I’d be willing to go so far as to say that VT-4P is currently one of the top 3 most mobile tanks in the world along with T-14 and Leo 2A7+)
3. Much thicker and better FY4 ERA compared to FY-2 in the original variant (I put some more details about this ERA in the dedicated VT-4 thread, you can check it out there). Also ERA coverage has been extended to the roof of the tank something not found in the normal VT-4, hence increasing armor protection massively.
4. New high speed data-link system and other improvements in C4 and situational awareness, in fact technology is this tanks strongest point, it’s armor and firepower are good but it’s technological aspect is basically next generation.
5. Different gun barrel, the one in the original VT-4 is not front-removable, the one in VT-4P is, allowing for quick changing and maintenance.
6. Thermal coatings (as found on Al-Khalid) as well as armored steel plates added to the sides for additional protection.
7. Several other smaller and larger changes that have not been revealed. For example apparently the Pakistani variant has a new and improved IBMS system.

All in all, it’s by far the best tank in service anywhere in the region.

 

[CriticalThought]

The whole idea of a military against a larger adversary is technically to prevent war. Otherwise no one has more control over capitalism than a certain Middle East country today- even when it has pretty much pacified all border threats through peace treaties or otherwise; yet it keeps the same sized military it would need to mount offensive operations simultaneously on 2-3 fronts.

Clearly, there is space for ensuring an enemy that even if they think of a military solution it’s not to end pretty for them regardless of the overall outcome.

I wonder why the purchase of Alcotan-100 was so limited?

We need to do away with the mindset that says smaller forces can only equalize or deter. Smaller militaries can win by using superior technologies, better tactics, and exploiting enemy's vulnerabilities. If you prepare with this mindset, you will win Insha Allah. But if your mindset is defeatist from the start, you cannot hope to achieve victory.

 

[Raja Porus]

We need to do away with the mindset that says weaker forces can only equalize or deter. Smaller militaries can win by using superior technologies, better tactics, and exploiting enemy's vulnerabilities. If you prepare with this mindset, you will win Insha Allah. But if your mindset is defeatist from the start, you cannot hope to achieve victory.

That's what I was saying; planning to win the war at military level while deterring it at national level.

 

[CriticalThought]

That's what I was saying; planning to win the war at military level while deterring it at national level.

When your enemy makes a nuisance out of itself, like India does, war actually becomes indispensable. Your desire to deter becomes your weakness. Your leaders openly acknowledge we are under a hybrid war, but refuse to wage a similar hybrid war against India?

 

[Raja Porus]

refuse to wage a similar hybrid war against India?

We have to strengthen our economy first and free it of any strings such as FATF, IMF etc. As long as these swords keep hanging over us we can't wage a hybrid war in India, considering India's hold on the diplomatic side due to its economy and trading relations. This along with many other reasons is why we can't support the Kashmir movement as we did in th past nor unstablise India using underworld etc like we did in the 90s

 

[CriticalThought]

We have to strengthen our economy first and free it of any strings such as FATF, IMF etc. As long as these swords keep hanging over us we can't wage a hybrid war in India, considering India's hold on the diplomatic side due to its economy and trading relations. This along with many other reasons is why we can't support the Kashmir movement as we did in th past nor unstablise India using underworld etc like we did in the 90s

Those strings are an outcome of your docile policy. Just think for a bit. Someone tries to blacklist China, what will happen? You are an important ally to China, how can people drag you around like you are a toy in their hands? The answer is that your leadership is their agent and refuses to do anything that goes against their masters' wishes. Believe me, if Pakistan desires, if military and civil leadership are on the same page, you can get rid of all your problems. The real problem is that no one wants to solve the problems.

 

[Signalian]

Hmm, due to relatively quicker delivery of VT4s, they are being used to replace old regts while AK is being used to raise new ones.
Btw sad to see t59s with such an important inf div(14, Okara) which might be facing the might most of IA mech forces.

Have u seen the terrain ahead of Okara towards Bhatinda?

 

[Raja Porus]

B

Have u seen the terrain ahead of Okara towards Bhatinda?

But near Fazilka, Sulimanke it is favourable.