Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[Metal 0-1]

I see , Sharing this here , MFI-17 i made and the COIN variant , plus some of Utility vehicles used by PA including those new foton tunlands which are being used in non-camo/ Black & grey colour by PA ,

Something out of 90s Nintendo video game.

P.S you forgot to add Land Rovers..

 

[Vapour]

they are being used, but since we have limited resources we cant cover the move of every convoy or foot patrols.

Has the situation improved since cleansing ops have re-started, I.e., the concentration of the ambushes and BOP attacks being increasingly reduced to limited areas?

 

[Ghost 125]

Has the situation improved since cleansing ops have re-started, I.e., the concentration of the ambushes and BOP attacks being increasingly reduced to limited areas?

situation is definitely far far better thn 2013 (speaking of north waziristan ) when on stretch of road of just 20 to 30 kms, BD party would retrieve 20 to 30 IEDs and yet one odd would explode causing casualities to road opening parties almost every weak. at that time army was restricted to few brigade and batalion size camps in Mirali, Miransha, dattakhel etc.
After Zarb e azb, Situation improved, the whole area till border ( dwatoi and wacha bibi recently) were cleared. posts established on all dominating heights. from 2014 to 2017 North waziristan was relatively calm..then the IDPs started returning and along came the cancer of PTM....the problems started again. now we see 1 or 2 IEDs/ ambushes every weak.

 

[Shabi1]

Wouldn't it be cool if we could design something like this as a successor to the Mushak-series? Basically, we retain the side-by-side seating configuration -- maybe add a small 2-seat cabin -- but leverage a turboprop instead of the piston engine? Basically, something like the Grob G120p. Call it Mushak NG.

View attachment 666622

Grob G 120TP - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The reason why Mushak gets so many sales is it meets a low tech niche ignored by others. Might not be cutting edge but its pretty high on practicality.What you are requesting would mean something with the same performance of the TAI Hurkus. With the market saturated with similar type aircraft it would be a risky move by PAC Kamra as it would have stiff competition for sales.
We've heard PAC has plans for a transport aircraft. I would expect they will acquire license for a out of production platform by OEM for eg best case Saab 2000, but could be something smaller like Chengdu Y-12.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş

 

[Vapour]

situation is definitely far far better thn 2013 (speaking of north waziristan ) when on stretch of road of just 20 to 30 kms, BD party would retrieve 20 to 30 IEDs and yet one odd would explode causing casualities to road opening parties almost every weak. at that time army was restricted to few brigade and batalion size camps in Mirali, Miransha, dattakhel etc.
After Zarb e azb, Situation improved, the whole area till border ( dwatoi and wacha bibi recently) were cleared. posts established on all dominating heights. from 2014 to 2017 North waziristan was relatively calm..then the IDPs started returning and along came the cancer of PTM....the problems started again. now we see 1 or 2 IEDs/ ambushes every weak.

Given that PA have done it once before with Zarb e Azab, they should be able to clear and effectively nullify any activity alongside the Afghan border neighbouring the Waziristan region. Guess the primary issue is Balochistan, because the sheer size of it imposes issues which are not readily solvable by PA.

 

[Readerdefence]

they are being used, but since we have limited resources we cant cover the move of every convoy or foot patrols.

Hi thanks for your reply is it possible to use mine clearing tank or something related to it by the way what PA is using as a mine clearing
thank you

 

[PanzerKiel]

Hi thanks for your reply is it possible to use mine clearing tank or something related to it by the way what PA is using as a mine clearing
thank you

In normal routine, dismounted BD individuals protected by Infantry patrols.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

The reason why Mushak gets so many sales is it meets a low tech niche ignored by others. Might not be cutting edge but its pretty high on practicality.What you are requesting would mean something with the same performance of the TAI Hurkus. With the market saturated with similar type aircraft it would be a risky move by PAC Kamra as it would have stiff competition for sales.
We've heard PAC has plans for a transport aircraft. I would expect they will acquire license for a out of production platform by OEM for eg best case Saab 2000, but could be something smaller like Chengdu Y-12.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş

He isn't talking about Hurkus per se. More about a Diamond like training aircraft. If Mushak sells doesn't mean you just sit there waiting for it to become obsolete.

Hurkus/Tucano/Pilatus PC-9 kinda merges basic trainer with some advanced manouvers, you could call it an intermediate trainer.

But @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is talking about a better basic trainer(which have progressed quite a lot in recent years). The positive could be that we could make it cheaper in Pakistan hence price could be a lot less.

Some more progressive basic trainer designs, sleeker, more modern, better performance parameters/handling. You can feel the difference when you step out of a mundane Cessna 152/172 and step into a Diamond for example.

But the counter argument could be why not just go for high performance, turbo prop intermediate design at that point then. Reducing the need for a lot of training on jets(you could practice some high speed manouvers on these. Allowing the jet trainer pilots to transition to front line aircraft faster.

Example: TuAF
Hurkus->Hurjet->F35/MMU

*God I cant spell manouvers

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

The reason why Mushak gets so many sales is it meets a low tech niche ignored by others. Might not be cutting edge but its pretty high on practicality.What you are requesting would mean something with the same performance of the TAI Hurkus. With the market saturated with similar type aircraft it would be a risky move by PAC Kamra as it would have stiff competition for sales.
We've heard PAC has plans for a transport aircraft. I would expect they will acquire license for a out of production platform by OEM for eg best case Saab 2000, but could be something smaller like Chengdu Y-12.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş

If PAC wants to be a player in turbo props at the bare minimum it will have to snap out of the "get it from China" mindset or going for some other long forgotten platform.

Pakistani folk need to realise we have to invest Pakistani brain power if we want Pakistani glory.

Tell me who wants to buy civil version of Y12?
Even if Air Forces wanted to bu military Y12 wouldnt they have been queing in front of Harbin to get it?

Also I'm not sure if you are talking about a military transport/utility or civil regional airplane?

Cuz recently PAC seemed interested in the regional airliner market. Largely to replace PIA ATRs.
For that I think you should think along the lines of COMAC/Embraer E190/Airbus A200 series/Mitsubishi MRJ.

If you ask me a KC390 like design suites PAC best becasue it can replace or supplement C-130 fleet and also serve as a potential contender in civil regional market(very hard to break into already dominated by moguls of aviation i.e Boeing and Airbus).

Boeing recently dropped Embraer acquisiton/merger so lets see who takes em up. Embraer going through a very rocky period. If Pakistan could spare a few billions it would make a very lucrative investment.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

That was done with all TDPs evacuated all enemies clearly identified and terminated.
We have already taken hold of all strategic heights and positions.
Problem is we need to develop advanced cyber and electronic surveillance. Model our intelligence on Israel they have some very good lessons to offer in terms of electronic, cyber and humint in environments where they cannot distinguish between friend and foe.
Get more involved in Afghanistan strictly covertly/indirectly with minimal drone assistance.
If the Afghan peace deals is successful and doesn't fall through, then we can gradually assert more influence.
@Vapour

 

[Shabi1]

If PAC wants to be a player in turbo props at the bare minimum it will have to snap out of the "get it from China" mindset or going for some other long forgotten platform.

Pakistani folk need to realise we have to invest Pakistani brain power if we want Pakistani glory.

Tell me who wants to buy civil version of Y12?
Even if Air Forces wanted to bu military Y12 wouldnt they have been queing in front of Harbin to get it?

Also I'm not sure if you are talking about a military transport/utility or civil regional airplane?

Cuz recently PAC seemed interested in the regional airliner market. Largely to replace PIA ATRs.
For that I think you should think along the lines of COMAC/Embraer E190/Airbus A200 series/Mitsubishi MRJ.

If you ask me a KC390 like design suites PAC best becasue it can replace or supplement C-130 fleet and also serve as a potential contender in civil regional market(very hard to break into already dominated by moguls of aviation i.e Boeing and Airbus).

Boeing recently dropped Embraer acquisiton/merger so lets see who takes em up. Embraer going through a very rocky period. If Pakistan could spare a few billions it would make a very lucrative investment.

I expect there could be a future more updated Mushak version eventually but not a new platform as Mushak is very practical for its role and there are reports of interest shown in a new LIFT. PAF doesnt have the luxury to pursue too many new projects as has too much on its plate right now.

Problem is PAC and other Pak military manufacturing institutions are not for profit or neither commercial entities. Primary goal is to maintain, customize or license produce for Pakistan's own needs, any outside sales are a bonus and entertained only when there is room in production capacity for a outside client. This approach is less risky and saves a lot of money for Pakistan but there is less innovation as the production is based off of someone else's R&D and a product that already exists.
You only need to build something yourself when what you need does not exist, not being sold to you or you can make it cheaper yourself. The current model works well for us since we have limited resources and off the shelf technologies are meeting our current needs. Added bonus for us is China also has to counter Indian platforms so their R&D on counter systems means their platforms can meet our needs with some minor customization. In the future PAF plans to change this and reduce reliance with its Azm aviation city initiative and more public/private partnerships. But for now this works for us.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I expect there could be a future more updated Mushak version eventually but not a new platform as Mushak is very practical for its role and there are reports of interest shown in a new LIFT. PAF doesnt have the luxury to pursue too many new projects as has too much on its plate right now.

Problem is PAC and other Pak military manufacturing institutions are not for profit or neither commercial entities. Primary goal is to maintain, customize or license produce for Pakistan's own needs, any outside sales are a bonus and entertained only when there is room in production capacity for a outside client. This approach is less risky and saves a lot of money for Pakistan but there is less innovation as the production is based off of someone else's R&D and a product that already exists.
You only need to build something yourself when what you need does not exist, not being sold to you or you can make it cheaper yourself. The current model works well for us since we have limited resources and off the shelf technologies are meeting our current needs. Added bonus for us is China also has to counter Indian platforms so their R&D on counter systems means their platforms can meet our needs with some minor customization. In the future PAF plans to change this and reduce reliance with its Azm aviation city initiative and more public/private partnerships. But for now this works for us.

Mashak is very practical so you will make it a statue, hang a yellow flower necklace and worship it???
Bro we are talking airplane and defence industry development not a t shirt that Pakistani families use until it is turned into pocha/tapri even that is used until it rips to shreds.

Innovation is name of the game if you want to make money/earn FDI that Imran Khan and Pakistani public like to cry about so profoundly.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I expect there could be a future more updated Mushak version eventually but not a new platform as Mushak is very practical for its role and there are reports of interest shown in a new LIFT. PAF doesnt have the luxury to pursue too many new projects as has too much on its plate right now.

Problem is PAC and other Pak military manufacturing institutions are not for profit or neither commercial entities. Primary goal is to maintain, customize or license produce for Pakistan's own needs, any outside sales are a bonus and entertained only when there is room in production capacity for a outside client. This approach is less risky and saves a lot of money for Pakistan but there is less innovation as the production is based off of someone else's R&D and a product that already exists.
You only need to build something yourself when what you need does not exist, not being sold to you or you can make it cheaper yourself. The current model works well for us since we have limited resources and off the shelf technologies are meeting our current needs. Added bonus for us is China also has to counter Indian platforms so their R&D on counter systems means their platforms can meet our needs with some minor customization. In the future PAF plans to change this and reduce reliance with its Azm aviation city initiative and more public/private partnerships. But for now this works for us.

Look at how much we have suffered because of sanctions because we wanted hassle free off the shelf. How we suffered paying Billions of dollars for equipment that may very well be overpriced compared to how we could have made it cheap at home albeit with some upfront r&d cost.

For short term gain we are missing out on huge economic potential for not just making money from sales of the weapons and tech we would have made. But also the trickle down effect of technology and money flowing from PakMil to other industries and the economy in general.

Since PakMil does not prioritise buying local there is very little incentive for local companies to participate in the market.

Look at Turkey how there revolution started with small sub systems. We are not even able to make small sub systems. 12.7 machine gun and Israeli corner shot copy display kar k Pakistani bare khush hote hain. Furthermore, Turkey started by making some very good JV choices which is yielding fruitful results today. We are not even making any efforts towards JVs.

Italians have a very small domestic helicopter requirement but they are supplying helicopters to the entire world. That is just one example.

Your last counter is probably gonna be paise nai hain. Jab billions gorey ko dene hotey tab bhi to yahi problem hoti hai k nai?
Agar ache time pe investment ki hoti to Billion upon Billions gorey aur CHinese ko na dete. Instead we would have re-couped the investment and made a profit. Alas, we are stuck in psychological enslavement to the gora and now the new abba for Pakistanis is China.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Defence industry is big bucks. The big powers are not stupid. Turkey is smart to try to get in on the action.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Pakistanis need an injection of good ole Capitalism.
But not too much, too much of it produces human decline and suffering.
Just the right amount.