Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[khanasifm]

30 means 3 sqn of 10 at-129 each sqn will also have 2-4 scout heli

Old 3 ah-1 sqn may be consolidated into a single sqn with some used for spares but do not think they will go away in decades or so

Old ah-1 plus no-35 will cover western front

 

[fatman17]

30 means 3 sqn of 10 at-129 each sqn will also have 2-4 scout heli

Old 3 ah-1 sqn may be consolidated into a single sqn with some used for spares but do not think they will go away in decades or so

Old ah-1 plus no-35 will cover western front

2 sqdns of 15 ea

 

[Sunny4pak]

 

[Path-Finder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1017783265900494848

 

[fatman17]

when we have landed first of them then we will talk

no problem. see you in 1 year

 

[Imran Khan]

no problem. see you in 1 year

only one i thought in 2020s

 

[fatman17]

Air Platforms
Turkey confirms sale of 30 T129 attack helicopters to Pakistan
Lale Sariibrahimoglu, Ankara - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
16 July 2018

Delivery of the 30 T129 helicopters purchased by Pakistan is expected to take place in increments over the coming five years. Source: TAI
Ankara has signed an agreement with Islamabad for the sale of 30 T129 ATAK combat helicopters for the Pakistan Army in a move described by the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSB) – formerly the Turkish Defence Industries Undersecretariat (SSM) – as “the largest single export in the history of the Turkish defence industry”.

“Contract negotiations on T129 ATAK helicopters between Turkish Aerospace Industries [TAI] and the Pakistani Ministry of Defense Production have been officially finalised,” SSB announced in a 13 July statement.

Turkey first revealed the sale of the T129s to Pakistan in the political manifesto that the country’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) released in May.

Delivery of the helicopters is expected to take place in increments over the coming five years, according to the local defence industry sources.

While the value of the deal was not officially disclosed, it is believed to be worth about USD1.5 billion, with manufacturer TAI revealing in a separate statement that the contract also features “a comprehensive package including logistics, ammunition, spares, ground support equipment, and training”.

TAI describes the T129 ATAK as “a new-generation, tandem-seat, twin-engine helicopter specifically designed for attack and reconnaissance purposes”, featuring “state-of-the-art avionics and [an] asymmetric weapon delivery capability”, which provides “highly mobile and lethal attack capability against personnel, ground, and air targets”.

Derived from the AgustaWestland A129CBT Mangusta that has been in service with the Italian Army since 2002, the T129 incorporates a modified airframe, new engines, an uprated drive train, a new tail rotor, new displays, and enhanced weapons.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 Do you think the PAA will replace the Pumas next?

Thoughts on potential suitors:

AW139

1. In terms of weight, engine power and stated lift capability, the AW139 is very close to the PAA's current Puma. Plus the AW139 was tested (and bought) for its good hot-and-high performance by the PAF.

2. Pakistan understands the AW139's PT6C turboshaft engine fairly well now. In fact, PAC released a tender in 2016 to build a MRO site for the PT6.

3. The dual-PA and PAF AW139 purchase in 2016 means that the infrastructure to absorb the AW139 (e.g. training, GSE, etc) is already in place.

4. Leonardo's CEO just led a delegation to Pakistan and met with the Foreign Minister, MoDP and others. Both sides called for joint defence production, so I think there's opportunity for some parts manufacturing, assembly, etc.

Turkish Aerospace/Sikorsky T-70 Blackhawk

1. It's basically the same proven S-70i Blackhawk design, but manufactured in Turkey (airframe, engine and avionics). As long as the US DoD is OK with it, Turkey can sell the T-70 to Pakistan.

2. If the AH-1Zs come through, then the PAA can scale the training it will have done for the GE T-700-series to the T-70. Bringing this engine's MRO facilities would also enable Pakistan to look at larger Western helicopters in the future.

3. It'll be costlier to procure than the AW139 though, and the PAF had (as per Alan Warnes) rejected the S-70i in favour of the AW139.

Airbus H215 Super Puma

1. Despite being related to the SA330 Puma, the Super Puma uses a different engine and is larger (basically Mi-8/Mi-17 size).

2. Known for succeeding in rugged environments. The H215 - like the AW139 and S-70i - has seen widespread commercial and armed forces use around the world, so it has plenty of scale, lots of spare parts and used airframes, etc.

3. The unit cost isn't too far from the Mil Mi-17.

 

[TOPGUN]

@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 Do you think the PAA will replace the Pumas next?

Thoughts on potential suitors:

AW139

1. In terms of weight, engine power and stated lift capability, the AW139 is very close to the PAA's current Puma. Plus the AW139 was tested (and bought) for its good hot-and-high performance by the PAF.

2. Pakistan understands the AW139's PT6C turboshaft engine fairly well now. In fact, PAC released a tender in 2016 to build a MRO site for the PT6.

3. The dual-PA and PAF AW139 purchase in 2016 means that the infrastructure to absorb the AW139 (e.g. training, GSE, etc) is already in place.

4. Leonardo's CEO just led a delegation to Pakistan and met with the Foreign Minister, MoDP and others. Both sides called for joint defence production, so I think there's opportunity for some parts manufacturing, assembly, etc.

Turkish Aerospace/Sikorsky T-70 Blackhawk

1. It's basically the same proven S-70i Blackhawk design, but manufactured in Turkey (airframe, engine and avionics). As long as the US DoD is OK with it, Turkey can sell the T-70 to Pakistan.

2. If the AH-1Zs come through, then the PAA can scale the training it will have done for the GE T-700-series to the T-70. Bringing this engine's MRO facilities would also enable Pakistan to look at larger Western helicopters in the future.

3. It'll be costlier to procure than the AW139 though, and the PAF had (as per Alan Warnes) rejected the S-70i in favour of the AW139.

Airbus H215 Super Puma

1. Despite being related to the SA330 Puma, the Super Puma uses a different engine and is larger (basically Mi-8/Mi-17 size).

2. Known for succeeding in rugged environments. The H215 - like the AW139 and S-70i - has seen widespread commercial and armed forces use around the world, so it has plenty of scale, lots of spare parts and used airframes, etc.

3. The unit cost isn't too far from the Mil Mi-17.

I don't think the Puma's are going any where !!

 

[Path-Finder]

@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 Do you think the PAA will replace the Pumas next?

Thoughts on potential suitors:

AW139

1. In terms of weight, engine power and stated lift capability, the AW139 is very close to the PAA's current Puma. Plus the AW139 was tested (and bought) for its good hot-and-high performance by the PAF.

2. Pakistan understands the AW139's PT6C turboshaft engine fairly well now. In fact, PAC released a tender in 2016 to build a MRO site for the PT6.

3. The dual-PA and PAF AW139 purchase in 2016 means that the infrastructure to absorb the AW139 (e.g. training, GSE, etc) is already in place.

4. Leonardo's CEO just led a delegation to Pakistan and met with the Foreign Minister, MoDP and others. Both sides called for joint defence production, so I think there's opportunity for some parts manufacturing, assembly, etc.

Turkish Aerospace/Sikorsky T-70 Blackhawk

1. It's basically the same proven S-70i Blackhawk design, but manufactured in Turkey (airframe, engine and avionics). As long as the US DoD is OK with it, Turkey can sell the T-70 to Pakistan.

2. If the AH-1Zs come through, then the PAA can scale the training it will have done for the GE T-700-series to the T-70. Bringing this engine's MRO facilities would also enable Pakistan to look at larger Western helicopters in the future.

3. It'll be costlier to procure than the AW139 though, and the PAF had (as per Alan Warnes) rejected the S-70i in favour of the AW139.

Airbus H215 Super Puma

1. Despite being related to the SA330 Puma, the Super Puma uses a different engine and is larger (basically Mi-8/Mi-17 size).

2. Known for succeeding in rugged environments. The H215 - like the AW139 and S-70i - has seen widespread commercial and armed forces use around the world, so it has plenty of scale, lots of spare parts and used airframes, etc.

3. The unit cost isn't too far from the Mil Mi-17.

What about Z20! Is it a candidate for considerations? An aircraft based on BlackHawk maybe with Turkish input it can be improved upon.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I don't think the Puma's are going any where !!

IMO there's a limit to how much one can support an aircraft based on just importing spare parts and spare engines, neither of which is in production. It'll just get costlier to fly and maintain them moving forward.

Through the AW139 the PAA and PAF just introduced a very similar helicopter (same engine power, similar MTOW, similar passenger lift, etc) to the Puma. Sure, the point was to replace Alouette IIIs (in the PAF), but they could've gone for lighter helicopters than the AW139. Instead, they went for something that is similar to the Puma.

I think the writing is on the wall for the Puma...

 

[TOPGUN]

IMO there's a limit to how much one can support an aircraft based on just importing spare parts and spare engines, neither of which is in production. It'll just get costlier to fly and maintain them moving forward.

Through the AW139 the PAA and PAF just introduced a very similar helicopter (same engine power, similar MTOW, similar passenger lift, etc) to the Puma. Sure, the point was to replace Alouette IIIs (in the PAF), but they could've gone for lighter helicopters than the AW139. Instead, they went for something that is similar to the Puma.

I think the writing is on the wall for the Puma...

PA has spares and is not looking to replace the PUMA any time soon simply we can wish and what we want but reality stays as seen in real time !!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

PA has spares and is not looking to replace the PUMA any time soon simply we can wish and what we want but reality stays as seen in real time !!

Let me tag Zarvan here and you'll see what wishing is...

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

What Turkey's military utility helo program??
And the Russian replacement for mi 17???

@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 Do you think the PAA will replace the Pumas next?

Thoughts on potential suitors:

AW139

1. In terms of weight, engine power and stated lift capability, the AW139 is very close to the PAA's current Puma. Plus the AW139 was tested (and bought) for its good hot-and-high performance by the PAF.

2. Pakistan understands the AW139's PT6C turboshaft engine fairly well now. In fact, PAC released a tender in 2016 to build a MRO site for the PT6.

3. The dual-PA and PAF AW139 purchase in 2016 means that the infrastructure to absorb the AW139 (e.g. training, GSE, etc) is already in place.

4. Leonardo's CEO just led a delegation to Pakistan and met with the Foreign Minister, MoDP and others. Both sides called for joint defence production, so I think there's opportunity for some parts manufacturing, assembly, etc.

Turkish Aerospace/Sikorsky T-70 Blackhawk

1. It's basically the same proven S-70i Blackhawk design, but manufactured in Turkey (airframe, engine and avionics). As long as the US DoD is OK with it, Turkey can sell the T-70 to Pakistan.

2. If the AH-1Zs come through, then the PAA can scale the training it will have done for the GE T-700-series to the T-70. Bringing this engine's MRO facilities would also enable Pakistan to look at larger Western helicopters in the future.

3. It'll be costlier to procure than the AW139 though, and the PAF had (as per Alan Warnes) rejected the S-70i in favour of the AW139.

Airbus H215 Super Puma

1. Despite being related to the SA330 Puma, the Super Puma uses a different engine and is larger (basically Mi-8/Mi-17 size).

2. Known for succeeding in rugged environments. The H215 - like the AW139 and S-70i - has seen widespread commercial and armed forces use around the world, so it has plenty of scale, lots of spare parts and used airframes, etc.

3. The unit cost isn't too far from the Mil Mi-17.

 

[blinder]

I am aware. But how does one leap from storage to embargo or cancellation? Besides, if these three are to be delivered later this year with the remainder, it makes perfect sense to store them properly for the next six month or whatever instead of keeping them under a shed in open air doesn't it?

Update: two of the AH-1Z are currently at 309th AMARG storage, Davis Monthan AFB, Arizona, USA.
Not from the first batch of three, but later ones...