Pakistan Air Force to procure Belgian C-130 Transport Aircraft | June 2022 .

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Wonder, why we didn't, go for the Chinese option, Tho I do understand that this Cargo Workhorse has been a mainstay for quite a number of years and we have the necessary infrastructure to support this, but I would still think about long-term strategy to move towards more Chinese system for more homogeneity

There are a couple of issues happening:

1. The PAF wants to expand its airlift fleet, not just replace older planes. When expanding a fleet, you'd want to get more mileage out of your existing overhead (i.e., training, logistics, maintenance, etc infrastructure) by having it support more planes.

2. The cost of adding these used C-130s is really low because Belgium is trying to offload them and the PAF already has the full supporting infrastructure.

Basically, the PAF knows exactly how to fly these C-130s, so there's no major cost to adding more of these aircraft. However, when you switch to a new-gen platform, you have to build the training, maintenance, and even some infrastructure (like hangars) all from scratch, which adds to the cost of buying that aircraft.

That said, I do think the PAF will acquire a new-gen transport aircraft, but way, way down the line (like the 2030s or 2040s). Over time, it'll become more and more expensive to operate the legacy C-130s. The pool of spare parts, fly-worthy aerostructures, etc, is gradually dwindling.

If the PN had to initiate a successor to the P-3C in the form of the Sea Sultan LRMPA, then the PAF will eventually have to do the same thing for the C-130. To be honest, I think the best bet for replacing these C-130s would be the Embraer C-390. However, this matter isn't going to catch on for real until after 2030, and it'd have to be for like 24 aircraft (i.e., a $5B+ USD program).

 

[Bossman]

The problem with an illiterate is that they desperately award themselves the medal of "being knowledgable" first thing when confronted.

The fact is if third world and it's defenders like you do not exist, first world "landa" cannot be thrown at them convincing them that since the whites have used it so its an honor to be re-using it for another 20 years.

I asked another self proclaimed genius the same quesiton. Will PAF acquire by choice these junked out air frames if the gov had the money to afford the J's?

If you cannot answer it in a yes or no, then do take your advice to yourself and sit down.

Apparently you also do not know that an upgrade given in 2000 and 2005 is already OUTDATED in 2022. This is not a motorcycle or a seed dispersing machine. That explains why Acquiring under 10 airframes, "some of which" here have "some life" left in them, is a big deal for you.

Fact is Belgium was going to scrap them and was contacted by PAF to sell it to them at junk price instead of throwing them. And here is every tom dick and chest thumper at it.

This is the kind of junk you are celebrating. Do answer me what i asked you.

In their 50 years of service in Belgium, around 150000 tons of cargo was transported,around 285000 flying hours were logged in around 199500 landings.

After the formal flight on Friday December 17th, some local navigational flights were flown on Monday 20th and Tuesday 21st. On Wednesday 22nd, 2021, the remaining aircraft were flown to Charleroi airport (ICAO code: EBCI), where their future is uncertain. Some sources say these aircraft will be sold as forest fire fighters (‘water bombers’), some sources say these aircraft will be scrapped.

With your fixation with the J models you are obviously an Indian faker. The Indian Air Force has already totaled 2 of its spanking new C130Js. That’s a quarter billion dollars. That money could have saved a lot of Indian farmers from committing suicide and made a lot of toilets.

On the other hand, PAF picked old F16s and C130s from US boneyard had them MLUed close to block 52 levels then served some “fantastic” tea to IAF.

On the other hand IAF had their M2K upgraded at a cost double that of a new M2K. Rafael is a totally different league for corruption. If I was an Indian, I would be very concerned about how the Indian military spends country tax payers money.

We are happy with our old C130s please worry about your country.

 

[blain2]

For the uninformed

Thanks for posting. I was suggesting the same above. We should put them through our own depot for structural refurb. and then get the Americans or the Turks to glass the cockpit. Given this is not an offensive platform, the Americans would release the necessary clearances.

 

[MastanKhan]

There are a couple of issues happening:

1. The PAF wants to expand its airlift fleet, not just replace older planes. When expanding a fleet, you'd want to get more mileage out of your existing overhead (i.e., training, logistics, maintenance, etc infrastructure) by having it support more planes.

2. The cost of adding these used C-130s is really low because Belgium is trying to offload them and the PAF already has the full supporting infrastructure.

Basically, the PAF knows exactly how to fly these C-130s, so there's no major cost to adding more of these aircraft. However, when you switch to a new-gen platform, you have to build the training, maintenance, and even some infrastructure (like hangars) all from scratch, which adds to the cost of buying that aircraft.

That said, I do think the PAF will acquire a new-gen transport aircraft, but way, way down the line (like the 2030s or 2040s). Over time, it'll become more and more expensive to operate the legacy C-130s. The pool of spare parts, fly-worthy aerostructures, etc, is gradually dwindling.

If the PN had to initiate a successor to the P-3C in the form of the Sea Sultan LRMPA, then the PAF will eventually have to do the same thing for the C-130. To be honest, I think the best bet for replacing these C-130s would be the Embraer C-390. However, this matter isn't going to catch on for real until after 2030, and it'd have to be for like 24 aircraft (i.e., a $5B+ USD program).

Hi,

So---my grandfather had a Duetz Tractor in the 1970's---. The tractor got stuck in a ditch---the driver played the clutch bad and the crankshaft snapped.

My uncle wanted a new crankshaft---in used--there was an original crankshaft available and a welded crankshaft available.

I chose the used which was 25% the price of the new one.

My grandfather asked why used---I told him---once ground and installed right---it is as good as new.

It lasted till the tractor was sold many years later with the same used crankshaft---.

In modern warfare---your fighter / strike aircraft need to be upto date---. The transport aircraft can be of any vintage---as long as it flies and delivers from pt A to pt B in a timely manner.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

So---my grandfather had a Duetz Tractor in the 1970's---. The tractor got stuck in a ditch---the driver played the clutch bad and the crankshaft snapped.

My uncle wanted a new crankshaft---in used--there was an original crankshaft available and a welded crankshaft available.

I chose the used which was 25% the price of the new one.

My grandfather asked why used---I told him---once ground and installed right---it is as good as new.

It lasted till the tractor was sold many years later with the same used crankshaft---.

In modern warfare---your fighter / strike aircraft need to be upto date---. The transport aircraft can be of any vintage---as long as it flies and delivers from pt A to pt B in a timely manner.

Agreed.

 

[Bossman]

So no answer to my question? obviously not. But How can you when all your desi mindset revolves around living on throw away junk from white countries and then defending it with your loaned life n soul.
THE ANSWER IS GIVEN THE CHOICE AND MONEY, PAF WILL 100% GO FOR LATEST AND GREATEST 20+ C130-J's INSTEAD OF GETTING SCRAP YARD AIR FRAMES IN NUMBER UNDER 10 AND THEN SPENDING A FORTUNE ON MAINTENANCE AND UPGRADES AND LIVE EXTENSION. You can keep the landa for all i or anyone cares.

P.S: It's not Rafael, it's Rafale. Learn that first.
You can be all concerned about indian and indian spending, dying about it i can see. if you had the brain to understand my point you wouldnt be dragging your bapu's country in every comment.

Why should I answer some silly hypothetical questions from some brain dead senile person who cannot understand basic logic.

Go find a fire hydrant and remember to lift the right leg. #ing Yindoo.

 

[MastanKhan]

So no answer to my question? obviously not. But How can you when all your desi mindset revolves around living on throw away junk from white countries and then defending it with your loaned life n soul.
THE ANSWER IS GIVEN THE CHOICE AND MONEY, PAF WILL 100% GO FOR LATEST AND GREATEST 20+ C130-J's INSTEAD OF GETTING SCRAP YARD AIR FRAMES IN NUMBER UNDER 10 AND THEN SPENDING A FORTUNE ON MAINTENANCE AND UPGRADES AND LIVE EXTENSION. You can keep the landa for all i or anyone cares.

P.S: It's not Rafael, it's Rafale. Learn that first.
You can be all concerned about indian and indian spending, dying about it i can see. if you had the brain to understand my point you wouldnt be dragging your bapu's country in every comment.

Hi,

Very interesting discussion.

Pak military is not a SHOW HORSE military---that is why you won't see a brand new C-130 type of aircraft in its inventory

We have done pretty good with throw away junk, landa and all.

Also---the pain is less when you lose one.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

Very interesting discussion.

Pak military is not a SHOW HORSE military---that is why you won't see a brand new C-130 type of aircraft in its inventory

We have done pretty good with throw away junk, landa and all.

Also---the pain is less when you lose one.

The U.S. has probably kept us away from any and all used F-16s because they know that even used A/Bs would up the PAF's combat capability.

Sure, a used F-16A/B itself may not mean much, but in the PAF, it adds one more capable air-to-air asset and, in turn, frees up a JF-17 for deploying stand-off range weapons (SOW) like IREK. That's a meaningful chain of improvements.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

We have a shortfall of funds---.

From used to new---we have climbed one massive mountain range---used f16's to new JF17's---. That was priority # 1.

And as we saw the need---we got us the J10-CP's and took the game to the next higher level---.

When it comes to weaponry---our mindset about its acquisition is different to that of our neighbor---primary reason being finances and that has made us re-invent our thought process and utility.

 

[shayyman]

Hi,

Very interesting discussion.

Pak military is not a SHOW HORSE military---that is why you won't see a brand new C-130 type of aircraft in its inventory

We have done pretty good with throw away junk, landa and all.

Also---the pain is less when you lose one.

Thank you. Indeed we have done good enough, but the discussion is about what will they prefer given the choice of money and opportunity. Will it be 50 year old used stuff, or the latest and greatest. It should not be, but apparently is pretty impossible to figure out even for some ppl here.

I believe the issue is definitely connected to economy first and politics afterwards. Pakistani economy has been damaged so much that PAF is not even able to afford these non-offensive machines in newer models. If PAF had the money, very unlikely that US would not be willing to sell the C130Js. Just like the Cobra (Zulus) for army were stopped over funding issue. Or Block 70/72. At the moment much of the weaponry pakistan is acquiring is from turkey and china, over credit and "installments". Pakistan does not even have the funding to pay upfront to these countries. Any potential deals with Russia are also talked on "credit" basis.

The acquisitions trend shows clearly that if and when given the chance and money, the military will choose the top end items. F-16 in 1980s when the 3rd gen were being offered. Recently J-10C deals and talk of J-20 (even when it's on credit). On naval front, big ticket items of multi billion dollars (no used outdated stuff). Same for army.

Truth is, there is no money in the coffers for PAF to afford 20+ new C130Js and US won't offer a credit line facility. Hence the overly used, near scrap air frames.

Hi,

We have a shortfall of funds---.

From used to new---we have climbed one massive mountain range---used f16's to new JF17's---. That was priority # 1.

And as we saw the need---we got us the J10-CP's and took the game to the next higher level---.

When it comes to weaponry---our mindset about its acquisition is different to that of our neighbor---primary reason being finances and that has made us re-invent our thought process and utility.

That is all I am also trying to say as well. Funding is putting high tech acquisitions on backburner. Recent political instability has caused the budgets to be cut further and it's going to get worse only with dollar hitting 226.

We need to remember that 90% of current deals are on credit line and divided payments over 10 years even.

 

[shayyman]

Why should I answer some silly hypothetical questions from some brain dead senile person who cannot understand basic logic.

Go find a fire hydrant and remember to lift the right leg. #ing Yindoo.

You could have just said the truth instead of going down the line of gutter talk. Is that too much to ask to speak truth?

PAF will always go for latest and greatest if and when given the opportunity. This is not hypothetics, it's a simple 1D reality which you can't see.

Pakistan's economy is now literally heading for collapse. Today USD hit 225+.

These air frames is all there will be now and you will need to do a much harder job convincing yourself and others like you in not too distant future.

The U.S. has probably kept us away from any and all used F-16s because they know that even used A/Bs would up the PAF's combat capability.

Sure, a used F-16A/B itself may not mean much, but in the PAF, it adds one more capable air-to-air asset and, in turn, frees up a JF-17 for deploying stand-off range weapons (SOW) like IREK. That's a meaningful chain of improvements.

Probably true few years ago. Don't think they care "selling" A/Bs now (but they won't offer credit as we know like China), but it won't be of much use to PAF now, considering Rafales and more Rafales as the threat.

I think PAF cannot afford any western machine now even if its technical conditions were met for purchase.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Sure, a used F-16A/B itself may not mean much, but in the PAF, it adds one more capable air-to-air asset and, in turn, frees up a JF-17 for deploying stand-off range weapons (SOW) like IREK. That's a meaningful chain of improvements.

I am pretty sure the PAF would make a good use of Akinjis and MIUS, even in below 1 mach regime, in A2G roles.....

 

[waz]

If fund permitted the PAF should go for five A-400 Atlas's. It's an exceptional transport.

 

[Zephyrus]

If fund permitted the PAF should go for five A-400 Atlas's. It's an exceptional transport.

In my humble opinion, The Embraer C390 Millennium seems to be the only long term replacement for PAF's C130s.

 

[MastanKhan]

Thank you. Indeed we have done good enough, but the discussion is about what will they prefer given the choice of money and opportunity. Will it be 50 year old used stuff, or the latest and greatest. It should not be, but apparently is pretty impossible to figure out even for some ppl here.

I believe the issue is definitely connected to economy first and politics afterwards. Pakistani economy has been damaged so much that PAF is not even able to afford these non-offensive machines in newer models. If PAF had the money, very unlikely that US would not be willing to sell the C130Js. Just like the Cobra (Zulus) for army were stopped over funding issue. Or Block 70/72. At the moment much of the weaponry pakistan is acquiring is from turkey and china, over credit and "installments". Pakistan does not even have the funding to pay upfront to these countries. Any potential deals with Russia are also talked on "credit" basis.

The acquisitions trend shows clearly that if and when given the chance and money, the military will choose the top end items. F-16 in 1980s when the 3rd gen were being offered. Recently J-10C deals and talk of J-20 (even when it's on credit). On naval front, big ticket items of multi billion dollars (no used outdated stuff). Same for army.

Truth is, there is no money in the coffers for PAF to afford 20+ new C130Js and US won't offer a credit line facility. Hence the overly used, near scrap air frames.


That is all I am also trying to say as well. Funding is putting high tech acquisitions on backburner. Recent political instability has caused the budgets to be cut further and it's going to get worse only with dollar hitting 226.

We need to remember that 90% of current deals are on credit line and divided payments over 10 years even.

Hi,

There is no doubt that we would want new over used---we don't have funds so we make the best of what is available.

That is what weapons world is---you prepare to fight with what you have and what you can get---that is what your focus is on to prepare for battle---.