Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[fatman17]

Remembrance of our heros

 

[razgriz19]

The question really is whether it is now really a need for the 16s to the extent that we bend over for them. AESA is going to go on next batch of JFT and be operational in 2018-19. The Chinese pods will eventually reach maturity and other vendors aill come out with comparable products in 2-5 yrs. So why do we need the 16s. How relevant will they be in 2025. People here are harping on about deep sstrikes. Believe me there wont be àny deep strikes with aircrafts and missiles would be far more cheaper and much more accurate way of destroying enemy targets throughout India and indeed Pakistan.It would be much more prudent to do so then send assets and men on a suicidal mission. So acquisition sequence will probably be continue with JFT continue picking up a couple of squadrons of 16s as they come along 2016-8 but not pin too much hope if theyy dont havee J10s/11/6s as our security in case we desperately need more planes for the hi part of Hi lo combo

Bottom line is F-16 is to PAF what F-15 is to USAF
And Jf-17 is to PAF what F-16 is to USAF

That's the best way to put it.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think PAF wants to frame its doctrine around a single aircraft.
Variety is not necessarily a bad thing. Tactics can be developed for a specific aircraft to take it down in air to air combat, this is where having multiple platform helps.

 

[araz]

Bottom line is F-16 is to PAF what F-15 is to USAF
And Jf-17 is to PAF what F-16 is to USAF

That's the best way to put it.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think PAF wants to frame its doctrine around a single aircraft.
Variety is not necessarily a bad thing. Tactics can be developed for a specific aircraft to take it down in air to air combat, this is where having multiple platform helps.

Iam fully aware of the function and value of F16s. The question is what does one do if we cant get any more. The options available to us in that case were what we discussed. I think at a national level we should give the impression of nonchalance re.the 16s. We do have options and the 16s are as much our need as it is of the US to keep us in its camp. The provision will depend of what weight each party gives to its case of provision or not of more F16s. I think we are dependent but not hopelessly so. However the US has a much more difficult balancing act in the region. They do need to keep us happy so in the long run we will acquire some older frames and MLU them but if we are not provided those we will not be hopelessly lost. This in a nutshell is what Iam trying to say

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

The question really is whether it is now really a need for the 16s to the extent that we bend over for them. AESA is going to go on next batch of JFT and be operational in 2018-19. The Chinese pods will eventually reach maturity and other vendors aill come out with comparable products in 2-5 yrs. So why do we need the 16s. How relevant will they be in 2025. People here are harping on about deep sstrikes. Believe me there wont be àny deep strikes with aircrafts and missiles would be far more cheaper and much more accurate way of destroying enemy targets throughout India and indeed Pakistan.It would be much more prudent to do so then send assets and men on a suicidal mission. So acquisition sequence will probably be continue with JFT continue picking up a couple of squadrons of 16s as they come along 2016-8 but not pin too much hope if theyy dont havee J10s/11/6s as our security in case we desperately need more planes for the hi part of Hi lo combo

Bro,
I agree with some of the things that you are saying like not having J-10's or J11/16's... F-16's are completely different. F-16's for PAF are a first priority as soon as they are going to find the right aircraft in the right price it is going to be added. If uncle Sam wants something to be done by PAF then it is going to supply x number over night without taking any criticism from the two I's.

Still IMO one should not depend too much on computer systems and BVR's. There are multiple systems that are present on modern fighters that PAF is flying so that in-case one is not working as it should they can cross check with the others so it is putting extra work load. How good your training may be this is still very stressful.

There are strategies and counter strategies hence thinking of no requirement for deep strike in the future is like considering to surrender.

Hi / lo mix is required for interceptions as that gives complete air superiority or denial...Till we get or the enemy gets 5th gen or even after these aircraft are required though they would me required in a higher number...

To understand why I am saying these aircraft are still required is similar to the strategy PAF has always considered and is part of its DNA..."A Symmetrical War" where one tries to inflict more economic loss on the other side... This is the reason PAF is still operating Mirage III and V's, even after the Rose upgrade then it is also cost effective.
If Mirage III or V is able to shoot down a Su-30MKI or Mirage 2k or Rafale (provided they do come) that is going to immediately change the course of the Air War.

Bottom line is F-16 is to PAF what F-15 is to USAF
And Jf-17 is to PAF what F-16 is to USAF

That's the best way to put it.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think PAF wants to frame its doctrine around a single aircraft.
Variety is not necessarily a bad thing. Tactics can be developed for a specific aircraft to take it down in air to air combat, this is where having multiple platform helps.

No... F-15 is for air superiority and F-16 is for Point defense for all other strikes they have B-2's / B-52's in USAF

Where as for PAF F-16 is for The Aviationist » Operation Opera: how 8 Israeli F-16s destroyed an Iraqi nuclear plant 33 years ago today

For all others we have Mirages, F-7PG and JF-17.

 

[fatman17]

F16 is a multi role platform and can be used in attack packages depending on the munitions available. It is the high tech end of our air force at this point in time. The JF17 is also a multi purpose platform but is regarded at this time as a medium tech aircraft which is replacing numerous lo tech aircraft in its inventory. So its a natural upgrade. However it is still a evolving platform where as the F16 is a mature tried and tested platform. I support increasing the number of such aircraft in our inventory while as the JFT matures it will certainly be the work horse of the airforce just bcuz of its sheer numbers 150 to 200. When we reach this stage the role of the F16 could be changed to a air superiority fighter. Now having said this the PAF is in a position for the first time to have options up its sleeves if the aforementioned plans go awry like the J10B and the J 31. In the Sanctions era we didn't have any such options which forced us to upgrade the F7 to PG standard and start the super 7 project which morphed into the JF17. I like our options now.

 

[Quwa]

Indeed. As it stands the PAF is largely focused on the development and induction of JF-17. The next big threshold will be Block-III and the point where PAF would be operating 150-200 JF-17s. That would probably be around 2020, at which money for another big platform purchase might be available.

But once the JF-17 program nears completion (at least in terms of PAF's procurement), I personally believe that the PAF will begin putting resources behind a next generation platform to produce at home. Not only that, but I can see PAC taking greater ownership of the development (albeit with the support of a foreign partner). This fighter would in the long-term replace JF-17. In the interim (mid-2020s), a few FC-31s could be procured.

The F-16s are a loose variable. I don't think the IAF Rafale threat is going to materialize before 2020, and by then going for FC-31 will be on the horizon. But a sudden influx of UAE Mirage 2000-9 in IAF might push PAF to acquire surplus F-16s and/or new-build Block-52+ or V.

 

[araz]

Indeed. As it stands the PAF is largely focused on the development and induction of JF-17. The next big threshold will be Block-III and the point where PAF would be operating 150-200 JF-17s. That would probably be around 2020, at which money for another big platform purchase might be available.

But once the JF-17 program nears completion (at least in terms of PAF's procurement), I personally believe that the PAF will begin putting resources behind a next generation platform to produce at home. Not only that, but I can see PAC taking greater ownership of the development (albeit with the support of a foreign partner). This fighter would in the long-term replace JF-17. In the interim (mid-2020s), a few FC-31s could be procured.

The F-16s are a loose variable. I don't think the IAF Rafale threat is going to materialize before 2020, and by then going for FC-31 will be on the horizon. But a sudden influx of UAE Mirage 2000-9 in IAF might push PAF to acquire surplus F-16s and/or new-build Block-52+ or V.

Thank you @ Mark Sien and @ Fatman 17.
Iam glad you see the picture of our future acquisition as I do. There are 2 variables here which have been raised. Firstly the fickle nature of the Pak US relationship vis acquisition of newer/MLUed F16s which both of you have alluded to. The apt decription of a loose variable fits in the the context of our description very nicely. We are all happy that barring any sudden and drastic increase in IAF inventory we will probably sit tight and wait for the J31/equivalent.
Mark Sien the disposition of the UAE M2K9s at the moment does not seem to be going anywhere. With no firm plans (at least to my knowledge of further acquisitions by UAE ) I dont think UAE will dispose off these planes. Ithought the French had agreed to buy back these planes but there does not seem to be any firm plans on further acquisitions by UAE AF and as such for the moment they are likely to stay where they are. The IAF also probably does not want to go down that route as they generally want newer planes. So we can for the moment rest assured those will not come into the picture. There are excess M2K platforms available for sale by the french but if that was the plan IAF should have acquired them a long time ago. You may remember we were offered 59ex French AF M2K5s in 2002 with enough spares to last 20 yrs and we did not go for it(source muradk,and I think pshamim as well plus a few others). So what did not happen in 2002 for us could easily have happened for IAF but did not. So do you think this is likely to happen now. The o0tions realistically for IAF and I dare say good ones is to acquire the 36 Rafale and fill up the gap with the MKIs from USSR. NOWwhat happens after that remains a mystery for IAF. Do they go for 5th generation and from which vendor. Ithink F35 maybe an option as IAF had expressed reservations over the PAKFA. This is the step that needs to be seen and countered. I think we have the cat in the bag either way. If all goes to plan we continue as planned and economic climate stabilizing we should have F31/equivalent as our next acquisition. Further F16s remain our backup in case of any surprises.
Araz

 

[Donatello]

Thank you @ Mark Sien and @ Fatman 17.
Iam glad you see the picture of our future acquisition as I do. There are 2 variables here which have been raised. Firstly the fickle nature of the Pak US relationship vis acquisition of newer/MLUed F16s which both of you have alluded to. The apt decription of a loose variable fits in the the context of our description very nicely. We are all happy that barring any sudden and drastic increase in IAF inventory we will probably sit tight and wait for the J31/equivalent.
Mark Sien the disposition of the UAE M2K9s at the moment does not seem to be going anywhere. With no firm plans (at least to my knowledge of further acquisitions by UAE ) I dont think UAE will dispose off these planes. Ithought the French had agreed to buy back these planes but there does not seem to be any firm plans on further acquisitions by UAE AF and as such for the moment they are likely to stay where they are. The IAF also probably does not want to go down that route as they generally want newer planes. So we can for the moment rest assured those will not come into the picture. There are excess M2K platforms available for sale by the french but if that was the plan IAF should have acquired them a long time ago. You may remember we were offered 59ex French AF M2K5s in 2002 with enough spares to last 20 yrs and we did not go for it(source muradk,and I think pshamim as well plus a few others). So what did not happen in 2002 for us could easily have happened for IAF but did not. So do you think this is likely to happen now. The o0tions realistically for IAF and I dare say good ones is to acquire the 36 Rafale and fill up the gap with the MKIs from USSR. NOWwhat happens after that remains a mystery for IAF. Do they go for 5th generation and from which vendor. Ithink F35 maybe an option as IAF had expressed reservations over the PAKFA. This is the step that needs to be seen and countered. I think we have the cat in the bag either way. If all goes to plan we continue as planned and economic climate stabilizing we should have F31/equivalent as our next acquisition. Further F16s remain our backup in case of any surprises.
Araz

US will not simply sell F-35 to India, regardless of how much money they can make. It will upset the balance in the region, unless China and Pakistan have both fielded similar level of stealth technology.

Since India is trying to occupy itself with the PAK-FA and AMCA, why would they want to go for F-35, when they didn't bother with the F-16IN or F-18 for the MMRCA?
In my view, the grant of a 126 jet order to a USA firm might have helped India get F-35 beyond 2020, but now it doesn't make any sense.

But then, IAF is known to field many different types in the same role......so screw logic.

 

[araz]

US will not simply sell F-35 to India, regardless of how much money they can make. It will upset the balance in the region, unless China and Pakistan have both fielded similar level of stealth technology.

Since India is trying to occupy itself with the PAK-FA and AMCA, why would they want to go for F-35, when they didn't bother with the F-16IN or F-18 for the MMRCA?
In my view, the grant of a 126 jet order to a USA firm might have helped India get F-35 beyond 2020, but now it doesn't make any sense.

But then, IAF is known to field many different types in the same role......so screw logic.

D
I was just going by the press which has clearly demonstrated IAF high ups unhappiness with PAKFA. They have also boasted about getting F35 and again there have been news from Indian and US sources about the "willingness " of both parties to consider the sale. As such we have to factor it in and analyse the robustness of our acquisition cycle which is what I did. What gets or does not get sold or bought is not my business as far as IAF is concerned but what PAF does and plans for MY country is very much so. As such I made the post.
Hope this explains my train of thought. If it has chugged its way on to a different station than yours we can exchange ideas.
Regards

 

[Donatello]

D
I was just going by the press which has clearly demonstrated IAF high ups unhappiness with PAKFA. They have also boasted about getting F35 and again there have been news from Indian and US sources about the "willingness " of both parties to consider the sale. As such we have to factor it in and analyse the robustness of our acquisition cycle which is what I did. What gets or does not get sold or bought is not my business as far as IAF is concerned but what PAF does and plans for MY country is very much so. As such I made the post.
Hope this explains my train of thought. If it has chugged its way on to a different station than yours we can exchange ideas.
Regards

It's not that my thoughts were different, but that there is a misconception that somehow India is definitely going to get the F-35 just like any other jet.
You have to realize the potential un-balance that a stealth technology brings.
For example, India buying Rafales or Flankers is un-balancing, but nothing that cannot be countered with advanced radars, BVR and WVR missiles. But what about F-35? When your standard Air Defence set up cannot detect it, it tilts the balance in favor of the stealth. I've always maintained, that getting a Stealth aircraft in the region is akin to getting the nukes. China needed those, India needed those, Pakistan needed those. Since it cancels out any inherent conventional advantage, you got no issues.
IAF plans a lot of things. They planned LCA then they planned the mother of all 126 jet MMRCA. Yet, they still haven't been able to procure even 36 of them.
There was always a talk of F-35 being pitched by USA for Indian Aircraft carrier....well did that happen? They are still flying Mig 29 and developing naval LCA.
In short, what i mean to say is, buying F-35 is NOT the same as buying F-15 or F-16s from the USA. Very different power politics at play there.
However, if USA is able to see Pakistan and China get a stealth aircraft, then sure, they might offer the F-35, but USA is not going to be the one that un-balances the conventional regional forces because that will indirectly force China to respond as well. While India is strategic partner, it is still not at that stage. India is not Israel or Turkey.
Or clearly, India does not really have much value....USA just approved a massive AH1Z package to Pakistan, even though Indian order for AH64s still hangs out there........
If India was something to USA, as much as the Indian dreamers here believe, USA would refuse to sell any equipment to Pakistan that can also be used against India.
Just like Israel allowing the BLK52s to Egypt, while stopping short of the AIM120.
Turkey is different case though, since they are full NATO member.

 

[fatman17]

It's not that my thoughts were different, but that there is a misconception that somehow India is definitely going to get the F-35 just like any other jet.
You have to realize the potential un-balance that a stealth technology brings.
For example, India buying Rafales or Flankers is un-balancing, but nothing that cannot be countered with advanced radars, BVR and WVR missiles. But what about F-35? When your standard Air Defence set up cannot detect it, it tilts the balance in favor of the stealth. I've always maintained, that getting a Stealth aircraft in the region is akin to getting the nukes. China needed those, India needed those, Pakistan needed those. Since it cancels out any inherent conventional advantage, you got no issues.
IAF plans a lot of things. They planned LCA then they planned the mother of all 126 jet MMRCA. Yet, they still haven't been able to procure even 36 of them.
There was always a talk of F-35 being pitched by USA for Indian Aircraft carrier....well did that happen? They are still flying Mig 29 and developing naval LCA.
In short, what i mean to say is, buying F-35 is NOT the same as buying F-15 or F-16s from the USA. Very different power politics at play there.
However, if USA is able to see Pakistan and China get a stealth aircraft, then sure, they might offer the F-35, but USA is not going to be the one that un-balances the conventional regional forces because that will indirectly force China to respond as well. While India is strategic partner, it is still not at that stage. India is not Israel or Turkey.
Or clearly, India does not really have much value....USA just approved a massive AH1Z package to Pakistan, even though Indian order for AH64s still hangs out there........
If India was something to USA, as much as the Indian dreamers here believe, USA would refuse to sell any equipment to Pakistan that can also be used against India.
Just like Israel allowing the BLK52s to Egypt, while stopping short of the AIM120.
Turkey is different case though, since they are full NATO member.

15 helos is massive! !!

 

[Donatello]

15 helos is massive! !!

It is, considering the level of technology they bring over the previous helis Pakistan operated, along with the 1000 missiles....which no one saw coming....

It is not going to form the main fleet anyway....we've got plenty options for that.

 

[fatman17]

It is, considering the level of technology they bring over the previous helis Pakistan operated, along with the 1000 missiles....which no one saw coming....

It is not going to form the main fleet anyway....we've got plenty options for that.

Phaleeese

 

[Donatello]

Phaleeese

So you would not consider this approval a big deal?

 

[fatman17]

So you would not consider this approval a big deal?

Sir it is a very important deal from our perspective but Israel ordered 14000 Hellfire AGMs recently. That's massive. Don't get me wrong getting hellfires was a great achievement. Now we need to convince US to supply AIM9X for our F16s.