Pakistan Acknowledges Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent

[Penguin]

The multi tube launched container all but made clear the evidence of Submarine launched capability of the Babur.

I don't quite follow the reasoning here....

 

[Penguin]

so are they planing to install nuke capable Cruise missiles on their subs to have a second strike capability?

that would involve a huge structural changes in their subs . do they have the capability to do so ? can any Pakistani member shed some light on it .

How so? A Tomahawk - to which Babur is very similar - is 1,300 kg without and 1,600 kg with booster, with a length of 5.56 m without and 6.25 m with booster and diameter 0.52 m. The encapsulated Harpoon is much shorter (4.6m x 0.34m) and lighter (690kg). However, dimensions of a typical heavy wight torpedo like the Italian Black Shark of German SeeHecht or US Mk48 are 5500-6500 mm long by 533 mm in diameter, with a weight of 1300-1700 kg. Not all that dissimilar imho.

 

[Penguin]

Yes they can, but the matter is payload. What would be the intended use of the system that's the question. And I think for striking land based targets you have to use different software, so same missile could not be used in dual role. It has to be for use either against land based or ground based target. All strategic strikes are against land based targets. So my question is what would be the primary focus of this system.

Taking 2 types of missile of the RUssian Oscar II class SSGN as reference, nuclear warhead on these missiles is 200-500 kt range yield. Tomahawk can carry a 150-200kt W80 thermonuclear warhead. Agni variants can carry a nuclear warhead 15 KT to 250 KT.

... Hiroshima was between 13 and 18 kilotons and Nagasaki 21 kilotons. ...

 

[Penguin]

the tube in first picture is similar to that of harpoon missle, which indicates that BABUR is designed to be launched from the ships, P3C aircrafts, and even from submarine.

So, you are saying that because of that container for Babur, and it's superficial similarity to that of RGM-84 shiplaunched Harpoon, there must also be airlaunched versions and sublaunched versions?

P-3C Orion with AGM-84 Harpoon (note the total absense of any kind of container)

UGM-84 Encapsulated Harpoon (note the capsule does not in anyway correspond with the canister used in the mk140/mk141 decklauncher for RGM-84 Harpoon, and that it resembles a torpedo)

Likewise Exocet in SM, MM and AM variants

 

[Penguin]

Pakistan has acknowledged the existence of a sea-based nuclear deterrent with the recent inauguration of the Headquarters of the Naval Strategic Force Command (NSFC) by the head of the Navy, Adm. Asif Sandhila.

A May 19 press release by the military’s Inter Services Public Relations stated the NSFC “will perform a pivotal role in development and employment of the Naval Strategic Force,” and was “the custodian of the nation’s 2nd strike capability.”

It only talks about the Headquarters, not about an operational sublaunched nuclear missile IMHO. It doesn't say there currently is a 2nd strik capability.

 

[JunaidP]

my intention is not trolling...because if Pakistan can do that with Agosta,then India can do that with its Akula and Kilos..so give me reason why MTCR doesn't come into play..I'll be happy to hear the reason..

research.. read.. analyze.. deduce.. its as simple as that.. what does MTCR stand for? MISSILE Technology Control Regime.. is the PN getting any missiles from France?? NO! Is the Agosta being modified physically?? NO! The only modification would be in the fire control of the SUBTICS system. Can the PN do that?? well my friend that is the real question that you should be asking.. The Babur can easily be fitted inside the torpedo tube of the 533mm tube. The trick is to integrate it with all the other sensors of the sub. Why do u think the world was so shocked when Babur was unveiled and it being so similar to the Tomahawk. It was because of the implications it would have in the long run. Implications we are hearing about now and will eventually see in the near future..

the Akula has 4 533mm and 4 650mm tubes while the kilos have 8 533mm tube.. if India has any cruise missile in the dimensions that would be accommodate by the 533mm tube (or the 650mm tube of the AkulaII) then it can surely be able to field it.. provided it can get it integrated with the combat system..

It only talks about the Headquarters, not about an operational sublaunched nuclear missile IMHO. It doesn't say there currently is a 2nd strik capability.

...and was “the custodian of the nation’s 2nd strike capability.”....

was = past tense, will be = future tense

carefully sentenced press release no?

 

[razgriz19]

i am sorry , but do you have any idea how complex and cramped the interiors of a sub are? this would mean major structural changes to the hull and additional support systems. i do not think you would be able to do so without the French help.

Im pretty darn sure PN thought of this before making a sub-launched version of Babur.
They either have the capability to modify the subs or already have done so.
remember these missiles will be launched from torpedo tubes, so not much modification needed there.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

I heard that it is very difficult to make Naval version cruise missile because of unique and different path. Also the effect of ocean and other aspects.

 

[The SC]

These are three facts:

- Agosta 90B can fire Missiles and torpedos

- Qing class can fire missiles and torpedos

- A pakistani made Nuclear Submarine is in the making and will be able to fire MRBMs, missiles and torpedos.

 

[v9s]

How so? A Tomahawk - to which Babur is very similar - is 1,300 kg without and 1,600 kg with booster, with a length of 5.56 m without and 6.25 m with booster and diameter 0.52 m. The encapsulated Harpoon is much shorter (4.6m x 0.34m) and lighter (690kg). However, dimensions of a typical heavy wight torpedo like the Italian Black Shark of German SeeHecht or US Mk48 are 5500-6500 mm long by 533 mm in diameter, with a weight of 1300-1700 kg. Not all that dissimilar imho.

Exactly. All we need is to make a good canister launch system for the Babur.

Agosta 90b's VLS are too small for the Babur. I guess we'll need the Qing subs for that.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Babur is a cruise missile not a ballistic missile. There is no need to do any structural modifications to fire a cruise missile from a sub. You use a booster motor to expel it out of the tube and push it over the water surface where the main motor takes over.

The size and shape of Babur fired from multi tube launcher is the same as any other tube launched torpedo/missile.

Usually Ballistic Missiles are used for nuclear deterrence. If Pak is using cruise missile it would be a different prospect and quite unusual. As per my understanding Cruise missile based nuclear strike could usually be tactical in nature. So what would be the payload of Babur if used in nuclear attack role and what role would it play, as strategic counter value weapon or counter-force tactical weapon, designed to take on India's Career fleet?

 

[yyetttt]

We are getting J-10B plus a couple of nuclear subs for our navy

 

[Thorough Pro]

You don't need specs, you need phone number of a shrinkhead.

I could put "little boy" in an old German U-boat and claim I had a sub-based deterent, any specs?

 

[Penguin]

Exactly. All we need is to make a good canister launch system for the Babur.

Agosta 90b's VLS are too small for the Babur. I guess we'll need the Qing subs for that.

Agosta 90B has no VLS, just torpedo tubes (533mm)

 

[regular]

Agosta 90B has no VLS, just torpedo tubes (533mm)

So this means that we can't use Agosta 90B's torpedo tubes to fire BABUR cruise missile? cuz they too small for it...