Pakistan 5th Generation Fighter Possibilities

[ahussains]

BCCI " Bank of Commerce and Credit International"

What a word we forget we have that .... we are one of the biggest power in Asia ?

 

[shehbazi2001]

I am back

Mastaan Khan without any respect You are simply case of " defeated mentality" and seems to have no respect for Pakistan

webby take notice - you ban me for putting frog in somebody pants but you leave this arrogant man even for insulting the whole country.

I think its about time that we should leave thinking that what is more difficult on scales of 10. man what your point?? you wana say as it is sooooooo difficult so we are not suppose to take steps for building it??

and who told you that we the pakistani universities do not have the ability to manufacture a simple internal combustion engine for a motorcycle. (I think missile manufacturing and its motor manufacturing is easier then building a bycycle huh Mastan khan??)

once gain without any respect you are grossly wrong its just the case of priorities I think maybe our millitary leadership is more intersted in building glorified messes and carrers in civil then to work on serious projects.

and what is your formula of calculating prices?? 1- 5 billion for manufacturing of suuccesful car engine. Mr Khan nobody is gonna sell you jet engine manfacturing plants. you have to get it rather create your own!!! Its more case of R&D and commitment, there is no end of technology every now and then new concepts and technologies are poping up. All pakistan need to do in this regard is to commit itself to Air force, unfortunatly we are still living in infantry time (at least spending wise). and let civil sector jion this venture and we will have our own engine one day but for that we wil have to get rid of peopel with defeated mentality like you.

are you in some way related to Yahaya Khan??

Your spirit is commendable but ur tone toward Mastan is reproachable.

You referred to UET Lahore, where a guy of Mechanical Engineering did a project of Jet engine........although he could not test it because there was no Test Rig.......building an engine test rig is a project in itself.........

This guy perhaps named 'anees' (if I remember well) now works for NASA, Pakistan perhaps did not need him. I was in school when his interview was published in a sunday magazine. Till now I have kept it with myself.

The irony is that GoP's attitude towards any talented guy is
"If u think that u r important, we would tell u that all these graveyards are full of important people". They think that systems never stop, individuals come and go. But its very flawed theory, system can deteriorate.

Universities need not to design engines for JF-17, they always do pilot projects. In advanced countries, all important R&D organizations keep separate funds for STUDENT PROJECTS. But these student projects are very near to the original thing.

And some top class US Universities directly do the research contracted from Department of Defence.
On the jet engine technology, at least some steps need to be taken. Initially PAF donated some jet engines to the Engineering Universities of Pakistan but then took them back, perhaps for PAF Museum. I dont know if museum is more important than engineering students acquiring knowledge about jet engines............?????

 

[xishan786]

Your spirit is commendable but ur tone toward Mastan is reproachable.

You referred to UET Lahore, where a guy of Mechanical Engineering did a project of Jet engine........although he could not test it because there was no Test Rig.......building an engine test rig is a project in itself.........

This guy perhaps named 'anees' (if I remember well) now works for NASA, Pakistan perhaps did not need him. I was in school when his interview was published in a sunday magazine. Till now I have kept it with myself.

The irony is that GoP's attitude towards any talented guy is
"If u think that u r important, we would tell u that all these graveyards are full of important people". They think that systems never stop, individuals come and go. But its very flawed theory, system can deteriorate.

Universities need not to design engines for JF-17, they always do pilot projects. In advanced countries, all important R&D organizations keep separate funds for STUDENT PROJECTS. But these student projects are very near to the original thing.

And some top class US Universities directly do the research contracted from Department of Defence.
On the jet engine technology, at least some steps need to be taken. Initially PAF donated some jet engines to the Engineering Universities of Pakistan but then took them back, perhaps for PAF Museum. I dont know if museum is more important than engineering students acquiring knowledge about jet engines............?????

you are true to your name. Shahbazi You are right. problem withus is that we dont give a damn to our own talent.

My point was simple which Khan sahib fail to grasp - Nothing is impossible- and there are always and there would be always multiple ways to do a single thing. So all we need is commitment and dedication and obviously a close collabration with concerned departments are necessary.

once some body said that it was dale karnigie or Mr Ford " Weather you think you can do it or u think u cant you are actually right"

 

[xishan786]

BCCI " Bank of Commerce and Credit International"

What a word we forget we have that .... we are one of the biggest power in Asia ?

I didnt got your point BCCI was the main finnacial tool that help us levearge our nuke program. Only having money just cant buy you the defence teck you need to have a solid financial presence of some kinf to do so.

By the way BCCI was a clear answer to thoes who think that economic power is bigger then millitary might. Remember how they shut BCCI without any credible reason- except that it was eating them out-

 

[Muradk]

Let us not get carried away with Pakistan' part in JF-17. This was not a grass roots development. The development was based on Mig 21.
Just see what happened to Japan, Korea and India; countries far more technologically advanced. Japan spent a lot money on research and ended up with a more expensive and less capable aircraft than f-16!! LCA is still a long way off reaching its design objectives, and Koreans ended up with an advanced trainer instead.

Pakistan needs at least a dozen years to even think of a producing a modern aircraft such as Rafael or Euro fighter, to think of a truly 5th generation fighter such as F-22!!.

Even Chinese technology needs a lot of catching up to claim such an achievement. IMO, Pakistan should concentrate on avioinics and radar development. If we are in a position to match European countries in this field in the next decade. It would be truly great achievemnet.

We must learn to walk before we can win Olympic sprint.

I am sorry to say this Naiz but it was not based on Mig 21, JF-17 has design like low slung and wings of F-16 , intakes like mig 23 so it is totally a new design yes taken from various planes not 1 paticular plane.
And yes you are right that we need time for a true 5th gen plane

 

[blain2]

Let us not get carried away with Pakistan' part in JF-17. This was not a grass roots development. The development was based on Mig 21.
Just see what happened to Japan, Korea and India; countries far more technologically advanced. Japan spent a lot money on research and ended up with a more expensive and less capable aircraft than f-16!! LCA is still a long way off reaching its design objectives, and Koreans ended up with an advanced trainer instead.

Pakistan needs at least a dozen years to even think of a producing a modern aircraft such as Rafael or Euro fighter, to think of a truly 5th generation fighter such as F-22!!.

Even Chinese technology needs a lot of catching up to claim such an achievement. IMO, Pakistan should concentrate on avioinics and radar development. If we are in a position to match European countries in this field in the next decade. It would be truly great achievemnet.

We must learn to walk before we can win Olympic sprint.

Niaz sahib,

Factually and respectfully I would have to agree with MuradK sahib's statement. JF-17 has nothing to do with the fishbed design. A lot of people tie the development of the JF-17 to the super sabre project when in reality the two are totally different. The Super sabre project envisioned a Chinese F-7 airframe with US avionics and engine. US sanctions on China and Pakistan totally killed this project. The JF-17 project was a result of the cancellation of the Super Sabre project.

The design work involved in the JF-17 was in the category of starting from "scratch". By the time the JF-17 design team got started on the aircraft, they had the Viper, Fulcrum and other contemporary 3rd and 4th gen aircraft to look at. So rest assured that JF-17 design is not based on an airframe design of the late 50s

This is a common mis-perception that you would most likely see on Indian forums. Factually speaking, the performance envelope of the aircraft is in a totally different category than the Mig-21/J-7. I could write plenty more but I think this issue is of fixing a common mis-perception. I am fine letting this mis-perception stick around but would expect those who have been following the development of this aircraft (Pakistanis etc.) to be better aware.

 

[Quwa]

blain2,

"Some" apparently think this MiG-21 based fighter is as maneuverable as an "old ambassador's car"

 

[ejaz007]

Its indeed unfortunate that the fighter is mixed with Super Sabre project. In reality the two are totally different. Even though it might not match F-16 in all aspects I still believe it is quite capable.
We all should remember that F-16 was built by a nation that had tons of experience behind them while it is our first project. If our first project is this good just wait another 7-10 years and then all would know what Pakistan might come up with.

 

[MastanKhan]

Shebazi,

Your post is very vague about what the engineering student accomplished in pakistan.

Are you an engineer---then you should know that it is senseless to invest into the research and manufacturing of a new aircraft engine for a country like pakistan.

Pakistan doesnot have any infra-structure, any research facility, any qualified engineers----and to top it all---just to manufacture one successful engine---pakistan has no funds in its kitty to even think about it---it will cost in the league of 10 billion dollars to come up with a working model---and then at the end of the day---that model will be shelved---because other engines would be available that are better and cheaper from other sources---

I have been telling this other kid---put your thinking cap on and listen---Mr Ford's time and kind of ingenuity is over with the last last century---today is a time for the world economy----car giants like ford, mercedes, chevrolet, toyota, mitsubishi, hyundai, kia etc etc buy power plants and power trains from other manufacturers----for the longest time, chrysler used mitsubishi engines in their cars and vans---mercedes used american automatic transmissionsin their benz, hyundai used all their power plants made by mitsubishi---even though mercedes has sold chrysler---but chrysler is going to be using the 3.5 litre merces engine---

Common sense prevails when time comes to procure these power plants---the margin of profit, the time it takes to design---and the cost factors will always be the determining factors---so please take your emotional speeches and save them for something else.

Aircarft engine designers have the same task at hand---most of the designers and manufacturers have a hundred plus years of manufacturing experience behind them---the problem is that due to the high technology design and high performance results---there may not be any new members added to the guest list of jet figheter aircraft engine manufacturers---no third world nation has the money to do so.

Let us move ahead with the discussion---it is useless trying to bash me and getting emotional---.

 

[blain2]

blain2,

"Some" apparently think this MiG-21 based fighter is as maneuverable as an "old ambassador's car"

I agree

 

[shehbazi2001]

Shebazi,

Your post is very vague about what the engineering student accomplished in pakistan.

Are you an engineer---then you should know that it is senseless to invest into the research and manufacturing of a new aircraft engine for a country like pakistan.

Pakistan doesnot have any infra-structure, any research facility, any qualified engineers----and to top it all---just to manufacture one successful engine---pakistan has no funds in its kitty to even think about it---it will cost in the league of 10 billion dollars to come up with a working model---and then at the end of the day---that model will be shelved---because other engines would be available that are better and cheaper from other sources---

I have been telling this other kid---put your thinking cap on and listen---Mr Ford's time and kind of ingenuity is over with the last last century---today is a time for the world economy----car giants like ford, mercedes, chevrolet, toyota, mitsubishi, hyundai, kia etc etc buy power plants and power trains from other manufacturers----for the longest time, chrysler used mitsubishi engines in their cars and vans---mercedes used american automatic transmissionsin their benz, hyundai used all their power plants made by mitsubishi---even though mercedes has sold chrysler---but chrysler is going to be using the 3.5 litre merces engine---

Common sense prevails when time comes to procure these power plants---the margin of profit, the time it takes to design---and the cost factors will always be the determining factors---so please take your emotional speeches and save them for something else.

Aircarft engine designers have the same task at hand---most of the designers and manufacturers have a hundred plus years of manufacturing experience behind them---the problem is that due to the high technology design and high performance results---there may not be any new members added to the guest list of jet figheter aircraft engine manufacturers---no third world nation has the money to do so.

Let us move ahead with the discussion---it is useless trying to bash me and getting emotional---.

Yes I am an engineer. I know that automobile/marine diesel/petrol engine is not easy, jet engine is out of question, steam turbines for electricity-generating power plants or water turbines for dams are not easy, locomotive engines for railways are not easy.........yes they are neither easy nor cheap........we need to do joint research ventures within OIC or other friendly countries for R&D/Manufacturing ventures..........but for operating, maintenance and improvements, we need expertise in these fields.

When a water turbine of Warsak dam started operating abnormally, the dam did not contact some US or European firm or the firm that manufactured the water turbine.........they contacted a Professor of Engineering University Peshawar and he did a study and said that the turbine had lost more than a ton of its weight due to sand particles in the river water and now it needed either new blades or replacement. Thus the heavy consultation fee was saved.

I partially agree to your opinion. Whatever you said about jet engine and Pakistan's capacity is perhaps right in happy peace-time and no-problem times. I would totally agree with ur opinion from commercial point of view.

Just study how Russia made its first long-range four-engined bomber. A USAF B-29 Bomber had landed in Russia in WW-2 and a person was given charge with full powers by Stalin to make a Russian copy within a limited time frame.
That mission was accomplished by hook or by crook, without only certain things like remote-control self-defence guns of B-29. By the end of WW-2, Prof Jukowsky had produced a batch of aeronautical engineers who participated in all important aeronautical projects.

It was the Stalin's pressure and Cold War that gave momentum to Russian technology. It was the Hitler's pressure and war that Germany made the best military hardware of the second world war including jet engines and jet fighters. Germany had lost almost every penny in the First World War but still rose to heights in just few years.

Command must be given to right people and things would start getting straight soon.

Expertise must be acquired even if we dont plan to design and manufacture jet engines. Take the example of Jaguar in IAF service. IAF engineers located a fault in the pump system of Jaguar engine and corrected it. By doing so, they improved the design of Jaguar too.

The over-wing pylons of Jaguar are also said to be Indian innovation. This shows that with expertise, an existing design can be improved or spares can be made in times of sanctions. I hope PAF too many times improved the designs or made the spares too.

But first a nation becomes an economic power and then it takes some time to convert this economic power to military power. Thus economy is a pre-requisite for these projects.
More on this perhaps later on.

 

[shehbazi2001]

But Mastan the journey towards self-reliance must be continued. The lesson to become independant in military hardware should be learnt from tribal pathans. Since 1920s or even earlier, they are making their weapons themselves....without engineering degrees.......

A pathan that makes a Kalashinkov is not engineer...although sometimes he may import the barrel from China/Russia........

In ancient times, the Mughals imported best blades from Germany for Daggers/swords but they had the indigenous capability of a good quality too. The "best" can be imported but the "good one" should be made at home.

The Moghal's decline has also to do with lack of a NAVY. The mughal empire virtually had no military ships.............It was the Tipu Sultan who started building Naval Ship with the help of French. Tipu was the first to use artillery rockets.......................

If the Mughal Navy had existed, it would not have been possible for East India Company to occupy India.....during coastal battles with Haider Ali/Tipu, the Royal Navy Ships would give fire support to its army from the sea side, thus making it difficult for the Haider Ali......

.it was the classic lack of expertise, the "graveyards are full of important people" attitude, luxurious living, and lack of military know-how in the last decades.......especially the technology

 

[shehbazi2001]

This is going to be excessive but Mastan one more post.

When I decided to do my Masters in Engineering, I took a look at Asian Institute of Tecnology (AIT) in Bangkok, Thailand. Your thinking was exactly reflected in their programs.

When I looked at the details of Mechatronics engineering syballus at AIT, they stated that as we are Asian country, our emphasis is not on design but on assembly, installation, maintenance etc. I immediately decided not to go there and decided for designer countries.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In fact a lot I say. Peacemeals , contradictions, dead projects suddenly rising back. I could point out 101 contradictions in some of the threads in airforce section.

Please do, that is what these threads are for.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Please do, that is what these threads are for.

Nope , wouldn't want to stir the hornet's nest