Pak PM: PAF interrested in L-159 AJT

[SEAL]

 

[SAUD-404]

it will trainer for future jf-17 and fc-20.i think we need more trainers then current k-8 but why not chinese dubble engine trainer?.

I agree. think chinese buy chinese. There should be some cost/benefit analysis.

 

[nwmalik]

just doing some web search and found that L159 was nearly bought by indian airforce in 2002.

AJT acquisition : Cabinet note ready,Security Issues, News Analysis, India News Online
The Hindu : Late-night letter swung AJT deal

and even last year they were considering it.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: India's Next Advanced Trainer Competition

What was the decision last year or still undecided?

 

[Luftwaffe]

 

[fatman17]

just doing some web search and found that L159 was nearly bought by indian airforce in 2002.

AJT acquisition : Cabinet note ready,Security Issues, News Analysis, India News Online
The Hindu : Late-night letter swung AJT deal

and even last year they were considering it.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: India's Next Advanced Trainer Competition

What was the decision last year or still undecided?

they have opted for BAE Hawks

 

[MZUBAIR]

L-159 AJT is an expensive AC, going through WEKI I found that its cost is U$15 – 17 million.....which is equal to JF-17.



I suggest PAF to ground 30 F-7 and modify them in KAMRA for Advance trainer.
PAF should grount adnance trainers like F-6T and F-5T.


50 K-8 Karakorum, 20 L-15 (Advance Trainer from China) and 30 F-7 are f9 for PAF advanced trainer tasks.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Gilani hopeful for support in EU on trade issues

ISLAMABAD, Mar 24 (APP): Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani expressed the hope that the Czech Government would continue to support Pakistan’s case in the EU for institutionalization of Pakistan-EU Summit process, enhanced market access through GSP Plus facilities and for initiation of negotiations on FTA between Pakistan and the EU.

The Prime Minister was talking to Martin Bartak, Deputy Prime Minister & Minister of Defence of the Czech Republic, who along with his delegation called on him this afternoon.
He appreciated Czech Republic’s important lead role as the rotating Chair of European Union in 2009, for arranging the first Pakistan-EU Summit.
The Prime Minister expressed his satisfaction on signing of the MoU between the two countries on Defence Cooperation and hoped that it will open new vistas of cooperation in defence production, joint ventures in Defence and in training fields.
The Prime Minister said that Pakistan could be interested in L-159 Trainer Jets being produced in the Czech Republic with the US collaboration and in upgradation of MI-17 helicopters at the Czech defence facilities.
The Prime Minister said it was gratifying to note that the bilateral trade between the two countries had tripled in three years’ period. That trend was reflective of the fact that a vast untapped potential still existed for further trade expansion.
He called for concerted measures by both the sides for focusing on this area.
He also identified power generation, particularly the solar and hydel power, mining, oil and gas exploration, education and science and technology sectors for future collaboration between the two countries.
Recalling his meetings with the former Czech Deputy Prime Minister in Beijing in 2008 and Czech President in Davos in January 2009, the Prime Minister proposed regular high level visits between the two countries including exchanges of parliamentary delegations for strengthening of the bilateral ties and imparting new impetus for cooperation in diversified areas.
The Czech Deputy Prime Minister & Minister of Defence underlined the importance his country attaches to fostering ever stronger ties with Pakistan and termed Pakistan’s role as pivotal in the war against terror as well as in restoration of peace and stability in Afghanistan.
He reiterated the view held by his President at the First Pakistan-EU Summit that trade was more important than aid for development of Czech Republic itself and assured the Prime Minister of his country’s consistent support in the EU for greater market access to Pakistani products.
The Czech Deputy Premier and Defence Minister conveyed the willingness of his Government to consider joint ventures and increased business in defence production through sale of equipment including the L-159 Trainer Jets.
He invited the Pakistani defence delegation as well as technical experts to visit Prague to have a first-hand experience of the Czech defence production and defence equipment overhaul facilities to take forward the proposals of collaboration in these fields in the future.
He also agreed with the Prime Minister on the need for focusing on expansion of trade, and cooperation in economic, science & technology and research training by stating that Czech side was ready to assist Pakistan in these areas to the extent possible.
The visit of experts in various fields to Prague could explore opportunities for expanding trade and economic cooperation.

Looks like a good platorm for new pilots to train on do we use simulators in Paskistan Airforces, simulators can reduce the fuel cost and also train the pilots continuously as well while keeping low milage on planes ....

I noticed in various class room pictures we dont use any advance simulators for training is that true?

 

[sparklingway]

While diversifying the technology at hand and sources would be great, why shouldn't we look further into Chinese trainers if we're going ahead with JF-17s and J-10s?

 

[Quwa]

The current JF-17 might be under $20mn for PAF, but later variants will definitely be more costly given the nature of changes it'll go through in the next 5 and 10 years. The physical airframe will see added use of composites and subtle aerodynamic changes to allow for lighter weight and better aerodynamics; the JF-17 will use a higher thrust engine (RD-93M is a forerunner); its cockpit will advance to use newer-generation interface systems (better MFDs, further digitization, etc); will see use of HMD/S, better radar (AESA), better ECM/EW & avionics suite, IRST etc; and finally use/integration of Pakistani stand-off weapon-systems, next-gen AAM, etc. ALL of this will mount on the cost of JF-17 and can easily take it to the $25-30mn U.S. range...and while that does sound like a lot, it still is little in comparison to Gripen, F-16, etc.

Its clear the JF-17 will end up being a sophisticated fighter and it is imperative that future PAF pilots train up to that level of advancement. We are talking about operating a highly demanding yet dynamic and involved system. For example, PAF pilots will have to fly the JF-17 airframe to a high proficiency, but will also have to learn to make full use of its tactical & stand-off precision-strike capabilities as stand-alone units; in conjunction with AEW&C & other fighters; perhaps cooperate with UAVs (as they send data, visuals, etc?); make use of the SAR capabilities on radar as well as use the targeting pods available & HMD/S cueing in strike;...and that is just air-to-ground. In terms of air-to-air, pilots will have to learn BVR and counter-BVR; learn to maximize use of 4th and 5th gen WVRAAM with HMD/S; again learn to cooperate with AEW&C and other fighters via data-link, etc. On top of this is the added expectation to learn how to refuel in the air and who knows maybe even use thrust-vectoring.

With all this mind I don't know why PAF wouldn't pick up on an advanced lead-in-fighter trainer such as L-159, L-15 or even KAI T-50. These systems won't be as expensive as JF-17 will end up, but will be crucial for pilots as they WILL need to be prepared to learn modern network-centric & more than multi-role concepts at a much wider scale than ever before. K-8 was fine when the fighter in line was F-7P and at most an F-16A using 1980s era technology...but now the bar has been raised to a completely new height for PAF. K-8 is a good basic and intermediate jet trainer and its numbers will increase, but a new fighter-conversion type is vitally required.

Money is a bugger issue for Pakistan, much more than the issue of democracy vs dictatorship IMHO. Had the country's financial situation been OK it would've been able to exercise many close partnerships with not only China, but also with South Africa, Turkey, Czech Republic, Brazil, Ukraine, Germany & Italy - yielding excellent results in a diverse range of areas. That said, Pakistan should do as much as possible within its means to have good technical and commercial relations with the Czech.

The L-159 looks like a good platform, but for now I see more of a chance (at least short term) in having relations with them in supplying small arms such as next-generation assault rifles, submachine guns, sniper rifles, pistols and PDWs across the Pakistani military. Though the L-159 would make an excellent LIFT as well as CAS + COIN platform. Pakistan should take them up on the L-159B and develop a multi-use variant LIFT/AJT, CAS and COIN platform so that PAF can settle several requirements of needs in one system...maybe even co-develop to make them PAF specific. For example, they can upgrade the radar and enhance its payload; integrate Pakistani-produced avionics and weapon-systems; replace U.S. engine with Ukrainian turbofan, etc. We can co-produce and/or co-market it with the Czech Republic...a noticeable order and investment by PAF would definitely attract a few potential clients...

 

[fatman17]

L-159 AJT is an expensive AC, going through WEKI I found that its cost is U$15 – 17 million.....which is equal to JF-17.

I suggest PAF to ground 30 F-7 and modify them in KAMRA for Advance trainer.
PAF should grount adnance trainers like F-6T and F-5T.


50 K-8 Karakorum, 20 L-15 (Advance Trainer from China) and 30 F-7 are f9 for PAF advanced trainer tasks.

the last picture is a F-7, ???

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

its the famous f-6 shaka

 

[fatman17]

the PAF has addressed its AJT needs by ordering the JL-9 (FT-2000) from china - 4 examples are being delivered (reported earlier).

 

[trident2010]

Twin engine trainer (L-15) for a airforce who only operates single engine fighters. Is it possible??

 

[raazh]

Although I am not any airforce expert. But would like to share my thoughts in regards to Mark Sien comments.

a - Wont it be a better idea to do all advance tech training using Simulators and then gradually doing them on the JF-17s themselves. Majority of the new tasks are related to shairing data with other plateforms. using HMD, Why to learn all this 5km up in the sky, when you can perfectly learn the same in a sim.

b - Instead of investing heavily into L-159 for localisation etc. Why not go for a more advanced local version of K-8 .. or even better work on a two seater JF-17 since it will be the working horse. Last 2 options would be more promising for us.

c - In a disguise, our economy status is a blessing for short term basis. If you know what goes on in most of the departements then you would be glad that we are not burning Millions into kickbacks, commissions. India is a perfect example. Budget constraints have caused major reviews and audits of projects, procurements and R&D. So this could be used as a good opportunity to re-structure all the short comings and loop holes. But for that too we need leadership .. which is the real issue

d - On the negative side of budget constraints, yes the R&D has suffered alot and many of the brilliant minds have left for better options abroad.

All in all the major issue is of governance - Leaders with a bright vision for Pakistan, instead of building own assets., Can turn around this very same counrty in a modern developed economy. Strong defence is a perk enjoyed by a developed country. Not the other way around. And yes its our fault. Our people leave the country for better opportunities abroad instead of facing the problems head on. Leaving its fate to the corrupt and short sighted people. Change cannot be brought by Forex Remittances but its the people who have to change.

 

[muse]

Has PAF released any specs or RFI or RFP for an AJT?

Why has an AJT become necessary for PAF? And Why a Western platform?