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Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

So in your definition, a criminal with clout automatically becomes trustworthy ...:azn: ??

Nice..

Where did you see the word " criminal " in my post ? :azn: I just said that the warrants were issued for political reasons , because the killed person in question was a proven and well known traitor ... Musharraf's the credible man under whom the country's economy grew tremendously , check the data from '99 coup d'état to when he handed over the Govt to civilians again and then compare it with son of a ***** Nawaz who looted billions from the country to the extent that Pakistan was on the verge of financial collapse ... Who's words carry more weight now and how come suddenly the near impossible figure of 4000+ casualties became a gospel truth for Indians ? :azn: ... Was my post so difficult to answer that you had to resort to nonsense one liners like these ? :azn:

You failed 99% of your objectives despite having the surprise and height advantage and suffered heavy casualties.

Off the 140 odd peaks you captured, you lost all but one of them.

What heavy casualties would you be referring to ? :azn: Our losses were still less than IA's who had 8 soldier for every one of our's ... Proud of that ?

Indian sources ( leave Pakistani sources aside ) will tell you that Pakistan still occupies more than 4 peaks from Kargil ... Continue celebrating Vijay Diwas :lol:
 
Where did you see the word " criminal " in my post ? :azn: I just said that the warrants were issued for political reasons , because the killed person in question was a proven and well known traitor ...

I am surprised to hear that now you pakistanis consider Benazir Bhutto as a proven and well known traitor.. Then why did you put he photograph on the advertisement you guys took out in the WSJ on the eve of 9/11 anniversary.. You guys seem to be a confused lot really...

Request for Musharraf

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Musharraf's the credible man under whom the country's economy grew tremendously , check the data from '99 coup d'état to when he handed over the Govt to civilians again and then compare it with son of a ***** Nawaz who looted billions from the country to the extent that Pakistan was on the verge of financial collapse ...

So a thief and a murderer is ok for the post of Pakistani dictaotor as long as he can fudge the numbers and make your economy look good :lol:

Double-counting: GDP overestimated, may be slashed by 10% – The Express Tribune


Who's words carry more weight now and how come suddenly the near impossible figure of 4000+ casualties became a gospel truth for Indians ? :azn: ... Was my post so difficult to answer that you had to resort to nonsense one liners like these ? :azn:
For most of the civilized world, words of a mainstream democratic leader always carry more weight than a thief and a murderer who is running from the law and is in exile in a country which does not have an extradition treaty with Pakistan.. Its you who have to decide whether you are a part of that civilized world or not ;)
 
Where did you see the word " criminal " in my post ? :azn: I just said that the warrants were issued for political reasons , because the killed person in question was a proven and well known traitor ... Musharraf's the credible man under whom the country's economy grew tremendously , check the data from '99 coup d'état to when he handed over the Govt to civilians again and then compare it with son of a ***** Nawaz who looted billions from the country to the extent that Pakistan was on the verge of financial collapse ... Who's words carry more weight now and how come suddenly the near impossible figure of 4000+ casualties became a gospel truth for Indians ? :azn: ... Was my post so difficult to answer that you had to resort to nonsense one liners like these ? :azn:



What heavy casualties would you be referring to ? :azn: Our losses were still less than IA's who had 8 soldier for every one of our's ... Proud of that ?

Indian sources ( leave Pakistani sources aside ) will tell you that Pakistan still occupies more than 4 peaks from Kargil ... Continue celebrating Vijay Diwas :lol:

For one you(Pakistani public) don't even exactly know, how many casualties you actually suffered.

Your general say, that Pakistani soldiers were involved in the conflict..that would mean your army did not suffer even a single causaulty.
You prime minister says..you lost the entire NLI brigade in Kargil.
Pakistani army says it suffered a few hundred casualties , but for year their stance has been only Muhjahadeen were fighting in Kargil..
So which source to trust, you are so prone to lying..that you have no credibility at all!!

But one thing, we do know for certain..the casualties you started suffering in June were so severe, that your Prime Minister had to run to Washington to find a face saving exit for his army from this ill planned war.

So final tally is .. after capturing 140 peaks you lost 136 peaks in addition to all your war objectives in the war..is it not embarrassing or what?
 
Where did you see the word " criminal " in my post ? :azn: I just said that the warrants were issued for political reasons , because the killed person in question was a proven and well known traitor ... Musharraf's the credible man under whom the country's economy grew tremendously , check the data from '99 coup d'état to when he handed over the Govt to civilians again and then compare it with son of a ***** Nawaz who looted billions from the country to the extent that Pakistan was on the verge of financial collapse ... Who's words carry more weight now and how come suddenly the near impossible figure of 4000+ casualties became a gospel truth for Indians ? :azn: ... Was my post so difficult to answer that you had to resort to nonsense one liners like these ? :azn:

So you are implying musharraf carries more weight than nawaz, remind me what happened to mushharaf?


What heavy casualties would you be referring to ? :azn: Our losses were still less than IA's who had 8 soldier for every one of our's ... Proud of that ?

Indian sources ( leave Pakistani sources aside ) will tell you that Pakistan still occupies more than 4 peaks from Kargil ... Continue celebrating Vijay Diwas :lol:


Let me remind you, your visionary generals misled thousands of pak infantrymen to their graves in kargil. We had numerical superiority, so what, get over it, we will always have numerical superiority!

There were two major failures in kargil on the Indian side:
first we were caught sleeping, total intel failure
second, the spineless NDA alliance did not have the political will to go ahead and open up the punjab,gujrat and rajhasthan front.

I dont care how sucessful you guys claim kargil was for pakistan, what astonishes me is the guy responsible for abandoning its soldiers, letting them being bombed day and night by IAF jets and IA arty when PA quietly stood and witnessed the slaughter, instead of impeaching him, you guys let him rule your country for 10 freakin years. now that he's out of power still there is no inquiry commission on to bring light to the kargil misadventure.
 
Well ! you may not consider it but it was diplomatic defeat of your founding fathers , at the time of before independence they were fully against the demands of Pakistan, most of British india administration were belongs from current india origin, while Pakistan's origin were ignored at then , The demands of muslims rights (seperation of Bengal , seperate electorial campaign, 1\3 representation on cabnet, central and local level etc) weren't accepted by congressmen and Britishers at then which lead us to demand partition at then.

Pakistanis and seperate tribes here aren't confused about theirselves But Indians seems to be, as their claim continues to change according to their psyche conditions , You are still combining seperate heritages of Pakistan as its reflects your Lack of knowledge on subject which you are trying to discuss here. Atrocities were part of local Dharmic Raja's culture , they got massive armies at then too but Failed against our armies and became Slaves of us. even after different time intervals They tried their level best but again incompetent against real art.

Bengalis were your part before partition and were our part before liberation, Indeed your millions of soldiers were the resistance provider against 48000 Soldiers and rest of all administrative units, InFact they consider I.Gandhi hero at then, but wat happens later? She supported Tamilians terrorism in Lanka , stabbed by her own gaurd as reaction of blue star. Decrease in intensity of ties with Bangladesh, even they seeks China as their major partner? Even now you hate Bangladeshis those who had migrated to india. (as an ally you should've supported them till the end) .

Kargil : 12 posts out of 134 accoring to your hardcore sources and 4 posts according to neutral sources you managed to captured, all and all it was your intellegence Failure, IAF didn't performed according to missions , Lost of soldiers , specially in 14th june attack on pt 4590. Total incompetency in Batalik sector , and still failed to secure NH-1D. Is that called Vijay diwas?

first thing our founding fathers fought for independence of India and they wished we stay united, but you did not wished to do so , so with reluctance we agreed to give you what is rightfully yours , a portion of land which we all shared . I don't see any victory or defeat in that . if I say see it from gandhis eyes it was like a son ( Pakistan ) asking asking his share of property , obviously he wanted him to stay united with him and his brothers but you refused.. so both brothers are given their share.. I am not going into what happened after that .



I know that a minority of Pakistanis are descent of Persian war lords who conquered India ( all of today Pakistan and half of India ) .. now if a Pakistani shouts 1000 years rule on todays Indians he is shouting it on his own fellow Pakistanis who were defeated , tortured , raped , forcefully converted etc .. but while trying to take cheap shots they are forgetting that fact that they are humiliating almost entire Pakistani population.


now come to Bangladesh liberation part , there you don't have any leverage no matter how ever you play with words.

agree before partition we all were one , but after partition , be become a separate state , Bangladesh was your part , but you did not treat people there as equals , so they revolted against you , you attacked them , they fled to India , we offered money , men. and training .. we successfully liberated them .. your army surrendered.today also we have very good relations with Bangladesh govt : which is elected by Bangladeshi people.

LTTE was just one of the org who were fighting for srilankan Tamils and I Gandhi supported them in their beginning stage.

later on LTTE deviated from it's route , they were not ready to accept nothing less than a new nation which rajiv never accepted. they become power greedy and eliminated other Tamil org who were fighting for the same cause , so the cause of LTTE was genuine ( you may read srilankan Tamil plight that time.. same as Bangladeshis ) but later they deviated , targeted innocents , killed their own people etc which made them slip into the category of terrorist org and India was the first to recognise then as such.

about Bangladeshis..well hospitality has limits.. when somebody come home and ask you shelter we give them assuming they go back when things are settled , we not only accommodated then but we helped them getting back their home, and if still they won't leave what can I say about them.

kargil according to our sources we managed to capture 70% -80% territory. considering it is an official figure we can safely assume that least 50% territory would have been recaptured.. and that does not mean that we would not be able to re capture remaining territory militarily if needed , it simply means by the time we captured 50%( to be neutral ) territory the war ended because you were not able to withstand international pressure because of your shameful act.

casualties for sure has happened on both the sides, for us the casualties were the price we paid to regain our lost territory, for you the casualties just went useless because you were not able to keep what you captured.. or rather stolen.
yes surely it was an intelligence failure we did not expect such a back stab from Pakistan while we were negotiating peace.

national highway is safe and secure .




1999 Kargil Conflict
 
After going thru the entire thread i realised one thing.. even after showing numerous videos and facts of their own ppl who should be credible... most of the pakistani freinds here feel proud of kargil war and they feel they won the war... i believe they have something to be proud of ... the 4000 odd soldiers who fought in that tough condition and they fought bravely..some of them fought with out ration and ammuntion... They should be proud of the plan/objective they had when they started the war..... common sense says a win in a war is considered when the war objective is achieved... According to what i learn from those videos the objective was to cut leh and siachin from main land, starve the ppl and army and capture it later. Create tension inside kashmir and take kashmir as a bonus.. i dont see any of the above objective achieved... What i see is that they lost an oppertunity in future to do something similar... The kargil war did lot of things for india... it made the intelligence agencies to open their eyes and ears... and do a reform on gathering and analysing intellingence... Kashmir issue has changed from a freedom struggle to pakistan sponosored terrorrism (if i can call it that way) infront of international community... so on... Now with respect to point 5353.. when i hear our friends speak about winning kargil war based on point 5353, it reminds me of my nephew (4 yr old) who was the last in a school competition but came back home happily with a pen he got for participation....
 
Problem is you guys have buried your heads so far up... that any one, who does not concur with your fairy tale events automatically becomes a 3 D..forget about believing Indian commentators or Neutral commentators ..even Pakistani generals who were in the thick of the events as they unfolded become liars..and Musharraf who is a proven liar(he never even accepted that Pakistani soldiers were involved in he conflict in the first place) becomes a proverbial Nishan-e-haider.

Any Pakistani with an ounce of sense will tell you, what a big disaster Kargil proved for Pakistan..how humiliating, embarrassing situation had become when your PM had to fly to US on 4th if July, to save you from the mess you had landed yourselves in.
But I guess you are from the other lot, who believes in blowing its own trumpet, no matter the results.

Please do elucidate, what did you win in Kargil war.

Off the 140 odd peaks you captured, you lost all but one of them.

You failed 99% of your objectives despite having the surprise and height advantage and suffered heavy casualties.

Your then prime minister had to face intense humiliation in the white house, where he had to go to find a face saving way exit for your army.

You did irreparable damage to your Kashmir cause and manage to forever correlate it to cross border infiltration and terrorism.

You were caught lying with your pants down, even your best friends refused to come to rescue. Now Have less than zero credibility in the international arena.

SO tell me again, what did you win in the Kargil war??

How big of a dumbass does one have to be to keep asking the same questions which have been answered like 100's of times! I guess, for Indian, there is no limit to how dumb one can really get.

There is no doubt about the military outcome as well as diplomatic isolation and the resulting fall from grace and slide down of the country in the international arena.

Some people may chose to deny both "Ankhon dekhi and kano suni" but that doesn't change anything.

The prime example of that is Indian claims of surgical strikes and invasions when they could not dare to cross the border in Kargil. Gutless cowards, actually gutless bullies......Poori Duniya ka Aankhon dekha Kano suna experiance!!!

I am surprised to hear that now you pakistanis consider Benazir Bhutto as a proven and well known traitor.. Then why did you put he photograph on the advertisement you guys took out in the WSJ on the eve of 9/11 anniversary.. You guys seem to be a confused lot really...

2 Points for you 2 digest:

1) Benazir is perhaps the only prime minister of Pakistan who was never given any tours or details about Pakistan's Nuclear Program as she could not be trusted by those who care for the country above democracy or political loyalties.
2) She is the one who gave details of Khalistan freedom movement to Rajiv Gandhi, the details were so explicit that the movement was wiped out within days.

As for the rest of your post, I know it must hurt to hear anything good about someone who caused such heartache for Indians by beating Indian *** time and again! I can totally understand man.
 
I am surprised to hear that now you pakistanis consider Benazir Bhutto as a proven and well known traitor.. Then why did you put he photograph on the advertisement you guys took out in the WSJ on the eve of 9/11 anniversary.. You guys seem to be a confused lot really...

So a thief and a murderer is ok for the post of Pakistani dictaotor as long as he can fudge the numbers and make your economy look good :lol:

For most of the civilized world, words of a mainstream democratic leader always carry more weight than a thief and a murderer who is running from the law and is in exile in a country which does not have an extradition treaty with Pakistan.. Its you who have to decide whether you are a part of that civilized world or not ;)

:lol: Are you alright ? I assumed you were well informed on the subject of Pakistani politics ... But again , I am not surprised ... There's not a shred of evidence linking Musharraf to Benazir's assassination and he isn't wanted for that alleged security lapse but rather for the killing of a well known traitor called Akbar Bugti who unfortunately is thought of as angel by some ... Hence , the political case against Musharraf to please those very people ... There's no restriction and he can come into his country , the courts will not be able to do nothing against him ...

Who's the thief and murderer ? :azn: ... Are you again " parroting " a thing again and again without any proof ? ... Nawaz is known as one corrupt politician not Musharraf ... If you cant get your facts straight , cant check the data , then better not discuss things beyond your comprehension ...

Fair Dinkum ? Since when is South Asia considered and acts as your favorite civilized world ? :rofl: You know well the state of affairs in both our respective states and in other countries of our region ... I am not only denying that 4000+ figure because it is said by a corrupt person with zero credibility who has done nothing for the country ... I am denying it because it impossible that 4000+ men died in a low intensity conflict ... Had there been 4000 dead , do you really think PA or GoP would have been able to hide it even for a short period of time :azn: Secondly , NS himself said he knew nothing about the conflict and that it was started by army generals , how the hell did he suddenly stumble upon 4000 ? :lol:
 
After going thru the entire thread i realised one thing.. even after showing numerous videos and facts of their own ppl who should be credible... most of the pakistani freinds here feel proud of kargil war and they feel they won the war... i believe they have something to be proud of ... the 4000 odd soldiers who fought in that tough condition and they fought bravely..some of them fought with out ration and ammuntion... They should be proud of the plan/objective they had when they started the war..... common sense says a win in a war is considered when the war objective is achieved... According to what i learn from those videos the objective was to cut leh and siachin from main land, starve the ppl and army and capture it later. Create tension inside kashmir and take kashmir as a bonus.. i dont see any of the above objective achieved... What i see is that they lost an oppertunity in future to do something similar... The kargil war did lot of things for india... it made the intelligence agencies to open their eyes and ears... and do a reform on gathering and analysing intellingence... Kashmir issue has changed from a freedom struggle to pakistan sponosored terrorrism (if i can call it that way) infront of international community... so on... Now with respect to point 5353.. when i hear our friends speak about winning kargil war based on point 5353, it reminds me of my nephew (4 yr old) who was the last in a school competition but came back home happily with a pen he got for participation....

Mate, read all the posts before you comment because we have clearly stated in regards to Kargil that it was a military victory for Pakistan that turned to a diplomatic loss eventually. India achieved almost all her objectives but then again, Indian diplomatic support has been phenomenal for decades.
 
So you are implying musharraf carries more weight than nawaz, remind me what happened to mushharaf?





Let me remind you, your visionary generals misled thousands of pak infantrymen to their graves in kargil. We had numerical superiority, so what, get over it, we will always have numerical superiority!

There were two major failures in kargil on the Indian side:
first we were caught sleeping, total intel failure
second, the spineless NDA alliance did not have the political will to go ahead and open up the punjab,gujrat and rajhasthan front.

I dont care how sucessful you guys claim kargil was for pakistan, what astonishes me is the guy responsible for abandoning its soldiers, letting them being bombed day and night by IAF jets and IA arty when PA quietly stood and witnessed the slaughter, instead of impeaching him, you guys let him rule your country for 10 freakin years. now that he's out of power still there is no inquiry commission on to bring light to the kargil misadventure.

Sorry brother we could not have opened the war in many fronts, This is because

a) Most of the artillery guns which we used in kargil war was from our strike formations,
b) There was ammunition shortage and even basic equipment for our army
c) There was a lack of Political will as you suggested,

but it was due to military terms that India did not escalate the theatre of war. But It is a lesson to us, Regarding our artillery guns, Ammunition Shortage and Hi-tech equipment required for surveillance.

I will thank god because at that time we didn't vacate our posts in Siachen, If they had infiltrated there, It would have been difficult, We Recaptured 90% of Territory which they occupied, Regarding Force ratio, I would like to clarify, Pakistan has occupied tatical heights, This is their greatest advantage, We deployed troops in the ratio 1:10.

@ Sandy 3126: Pakistan has learnt a lot from kargil, But we did'nt learn anything, Except a few things, We did'nt buy enough artillery guns for our army, Still now we face a ammuniton shortage, which is really a concern to us. Buying 145 M777 artillery guns is a good move, But the number is not sufficient for our needs.
 
How big of a dumbass does one have to be to keep asking the same questions which have been answered like 100's of times! I guess, for Indian, there is no limit to how dumb one can really get.

A question which you might legitimately ask yourself. You have displayed behaviour which is identical.

The prime example of that is Indian claims of surgical strikes and invasions when they could not dare to cross the border in Kargil. Gutless cowards, actually gutless bullies......Poori Duniya ka Aankhon dekha Kano suna experiance!!!

No claims were made - ever - of surgical strikes or invasions.

These have been considered and planned, and abandoned when it became apparent that giving up these options would increase the world's impression that Pakistan was irresponsible and an aggressor, and India was a mature, responsible power. The policy has worked very well.

2 Points for you 2 digest:

1) Benazir is perhaps the only prime minister of Pakistan who was never given any tours or details about Pakistan's Nuclear Program as she could not be trusted by those who care for the country above democracy or political loyalties.
2) She is the one who gave details of Khalistan freedom movement to Rajiv Gandhi, the details were so explicit that the movement was wiped out within days.

As for the rest of your post, I know it must hurt to hear anything good about someone who caused such heartache for Indians by beating Indian *** time and again! I can totally understand man.

Obviously a Musharraf supporter.

You may take pride in the fact that attitudes such as yours have thwarted the growth of democracy in Pakistan, and left the country struggling to catch up with the rest of the world. All to satisfy the ego of four or five selfish men.
 
So you are implying musharraf carries more weight than nawaz, remind me what happened to mushharaf?

Let me remind you, your visionary generals misled thousands of pak infantrymen to their graves in kargil. We had numerical superiority, so what, get over it, we will always have numerical superiority!

There were two major failures in kargil on the Indian side:
first we were caught sleeping, total intel failure
second, the spineless NDA alliance did not have the political will to go ahead and open up the punjab,gujrat and rajhasthan front.

I dont care how sucessful you guys claim kargil was for pakistan, what astonishes me is the guy responsible for abandoning its soldiers, letting them being bombed day and night by IAF jets and IA arty when PA quietly stood and witnessed the slaughter, instead of impeaching him, you guys let him rule your country for 10 freakin years. now that he's out of power still there is no inquiry commission on to bring light to the kargil misadventure.

:lol: What are you proud of then ? :azn: If you had numerical and technological superiority and still suffered more losses than us and lost 4+ peaks ? One of them which directly overlooks NH1-D , the lifeline of IA

Let me remind you , there were no thousands of PA soldiers deaths in Kargil ( unless you consider 400+ as thousands :rofl: ) ... You are not even able to comprehend what does 4000+ deaths even mean :lol: ...

I do not care what you say , My country caught you off guard , inflicted heavy losses despite numerical inferiority , didn't use the air cover and now controls a peak which directly overlooks your vital lifeline ... Big accomplishment for a country almost 5x smaller than you :azn: ... 10 freaking years , yes which is considered as the golden era of Pakistan ... Why should we set up inquiry commission ? :azn:
 
:lol: What are you proud of then ? :azn: If you had numerical and technological superiority and still suffered more losses than us and lost 4+ peaks ? One of them which directly overlooks NH1-D , the lifeline of IA

Let me remind you , there were no thousands of PA soldiers deaths in Kargil ( unless you consider 400+ as thousands :rofl: ) ... You are not even able to comprehend what does 4000+ deaths even mean :lol: ...

I do not care what you say , My country caught you off guard , inflicted heavy losses despite numerical inferiority , didn't use the air cover and now controls a peak which directly overlooks your vital lifeline ... Big accomplishment for a country almost 5x smaller than you :azn: ... 10 freaking years , yes which is considered as the golden era of Pakistan ... Why should we set up inquiry commission ? :azn:

We never lost 4 Peaks no International source quotes this one, Only peak which we lost was Point 5353, Another thing is your primary objective of snatching siachen was never a success.
 
I know that a minority of Pakistanis are descent of Persian war lords who conquered India ( all of today Pakistan and half of India ) .. now if a Pakistani shouts 1000 years rule on todays Indians he is shouting it on his own fellow Pakistanis who were defeated , tortured , raped , forcefully converted etc .. but while trying to take cheap shots they are forgetting that fact that they are humiliating almost entire Pakistani population.

I know that you know very little of the arrival of Islam in the subcontinent and are fed with false " conversion at the point of sword " theories ... Just answer me this , if the Muslim invaders were converting everyone then how come there's still a majority of Hindus in the subcontinent ? :azn: ... Sorry , nobody's disrespecting anyone ... Who were you when you weren't a Hindu ? Religion changes with time ... No one is shouting on his fellow Muslims who were done with Hindu caste system who saw the light of truth in the new religion of Islam at that time and converted of his own will and through the efforts of Sufis , some of which even you Hindus revere even now ... Who's to deny they didn't rule India for almost a 1000 years ?

We never lost 4 Peaks no International source quotes this one, Only peak which we lost was Point 5353, Another thing is your primary objective of snatching siachen was never a success.

Well Indian ones do , shall I post ? :azn:
 
I know that you know very little of the arrival of Islam in the subcontinent and are fed with false " conversion at the point of sword " theories ... Just answer me this , if the Muslim invaders were converting everyone then how come there's still a majority of Hindus in the subcontinent ? :azn: ... Sorry , nobody's disrespecting anyone ... Who were you when you weren't a Hindu ? Religion changes with time ... No one is shouting on his fellow muslims who saw the light of truth in the new religion of Islam at that time and converted of his own will and through the efforts of Sufis , some of which even you Hindus revere even now ...



Well Indian ones do , shall I post ? :azn:

any one that is reliable like Wikipedia , Global security.org, Not like sources from rupeenews.com,sisataurpakistan.com
 
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