Pak may be fabricating trial story of 'dead' Kulbhushan Jadhav: Former union home secy

[Blacklight]

Not an opinion but disrespecting PA which is totally uncalled for. If you aren't aware of such system/procedure then it is appropriate not to comment with speculation.

"He was supposedly tried by a field gen. court martial of the army, which means he was tried by a military jury, not trained in law and which is not independent or impartial and that which works under the Pak army."


1) Every armed forces in the world has a legal dept, which takes care of such issues, as well as other matters related to the Armed Forces. In the US it is called JAG.

2) In the PA it was JAG, which was headed by Brigadier Naubhar, but he was replaced by Maj.Gen. Mohammad Irshad, and the name changed to Director General Lawfare Directorate (DGLD) as of Dec 2016.

3) DGLD can prosecute any individual, under the Anti-Terrorism Act, and Protection of Pakistan Act

4) To assume that a military jury is not trained in law, foolishly exposes how a person's judgement can be clouded because of their bias.

Anyone who has attended jury duty will know, that both the prosecution, and defence go out of their way to clear things for jury members. In a military scenario, things would be even more streamlined, and clear cut.

5) The question still remains to be answered by the forum members from across the eastern border, as to how he was caught, and what exactly was he doing inside Pakistan?

 

[HRK]

I do NOT hold any personal grudge against him,

Same here ....

years on this forum and i have written many original articles, hence the 59 positive ratings in my profile.

Good to know your ''positive'' contributions in PAST, I on personal grounds looking forward for your positive contributions in future as well, further I also hope that you will raise above the NATIONAL BIAS & would post something ORIGINAL this time as well

Regards,

 

[The Eagle]

My post was an opinion that was formed after i read many NEUTRAL sources condemning the army courts from your side. I put forward the article and quotes which shaped my POV

1. The sunset clause has come under fire from your own opposition parties who want civilian judges to be included in the panel of judges in the army court, this is an indicator that neither the government nor the army has been able to convince everyone about the proceedings of military court.

2. The main objection has so far been that in 94.5 per cent of these cases most of them were convicted on the basis of confessions, this despite the fact that in regular murder cases, convictions on the basis of judicial confessions aren't even 5 percent in Pakistan. In many cases family members of the accused had alleged that their relatives were coerced into confessing, were not given access to lawyers of their choice, or to the evidence being used against them.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/...y-courts-terror-suspects-170321143432673.html





3. Now, Kulbhushan,RAW agent according to Pak army was arrested on 3rd march 2016. But was tried in the army court. While 3 suspected RAW agents, were tried and acquitted by a civilian court, 23rd october 2016. This gives enough space for the arguments of layman like me questioning KJ's trial.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1291602





4. Infact, the military courts were vehemently opposed by the lawyers of Pakistan, for it being against the constitution itself. So me as an Indian questioning the same is no way disrespectful to your institutions. I had specifically cited "training" of those involved as for sure those in army courts arent as experienced and trained as the civilian lawyers.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1160372



***********************************

Being Senior on the Forum and well knowledge, you will be aware about the credibility of DAWN (if you are not aware kindly read about Dawn Leaks) and then Political parties. PPP's own leader was on run due to Army and use to bad mouth against Establishment since start. Their reservation holds no credibility hence, not worth of consideration in these matters. Speaking of PPP, just and only read Uzair Baloch that has been involved in anti-state crimes and many others but use to roam freely around knowing that civil judiciary is weak in these matters especially when it comes to deal with terrorism matters. This was the reason that Military Courts were established so that due to negligence of investigators in front of civil court, the terrorists may not walk freely and for the same development, every Pakistani has seen the change except those who are involved in such crimes especially political parties.

Read about the reason of establishment of Military Courts and also, political parties have been denying the same as many of their workers were involved in such crimes that parties lost the leverage in Military Court. These culprits use to influence civil court proceeding by any mean from threats to attacks and mostly, I must say almost in all cases, either witness is being threatened or killed by unknown people. Police has been negligent in such matters whereby, the real culprit walked away due to the same and lack of evidence which was totally mishandling by investigation yet Court has to release the criminal. On other hand, Police has been used for political gains by ruling elite especially PPP and PMLn as well as others in areas where innocent has been targeted yet Court has to release them as well. Even sometimes, the innocent got punished due to framed evidences by Police in Civil Court too. These were few of the core reasons where establishing Military Court become must only to deal with anti-state criminals strictly and to avoid any political influence. You will be aware if Police system and Civil Courts could have punished the criminals involved in terrorism, we would have seen peace long ago but unfortunately, due to many factors involved, such proceeding in Civil Courts did not go well.

Lawyers opposed the same like a duty in Pakistan that whatever comes by anyone else, even it is for good, needs to be opposed and still, such opposition was worthless hence, Military Courts are formed accordingly. Most of the Lawyers are party workers as well and when a party express its stance then from assembly to lawyers and wherever theirs workers are, carries the same tone.

All in all, it does not proves that Military Courts are not well trained, not independent or impartial because that works under PA. Political parties have no value in these matters that mostly are seeing their neck in rope due to their crimes, when it comes to Military Court as these culprits can influence Police Investigation easily to walk away in Civil Courts. He is rightly tried under proper Law and by Competent Court for such matters though, India can prove such in any International Court but blames as such, are not plausible.

Still, the political point scoring by parties over Military Courts, does not holds much weight as people are satisfied and Courts have done a lot for peace. However, Kulbashan a spy/terrorist has nothing to do with Civilian Court Proceeding and reservation by political parties against Military Courts has no relation with this case of Kulbashan. An Indian Naval Commander, involved in espionage and terrorism inside Pakistan, is correctly trialed in Military Court. You can also read about what UN says recently in this regard even an Indian Journalist put question.

I for one post an opinion on this forum after making sufficient research on the topic. 3 years on this forum and i have written many original articles, hence the 59 positive ratings in my profile. I assume that's enough to prove the reason I still exist on the forum.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Regards

You are always welcome and it is good to see you holding to same energy and still contributing that we will be looking forward to read about more with quality analysis and insight of the matter. I see that no one can question your contribution to the Forum and quality analysis, observations, debates and discussion for the interest of readers/members.

 

[Levina]

Same here ....

Good to know your ''positive'' contributions in PAST, I on personal grounds looking forward for your positive contributions in future as well, further I also hope that you will raise above the NATIONAL BIAS & would post something ORIGINAL this time as well

Regards,

Being Senior on the Forum and well knowledge, you will be aware about the credibility of DAWN (if you are not aware kindly read about Dawn Leaks) and then Political parties. PPP's own leader was on run due to Army and use to bad mouth against Establishment since start. Their reservation holds no credibility hence, not worth of consideration in these matters. Speaking of PPP, just and only read Uzair Baloch that has been involved in anti-state crimes and many others but use to roam freely around knowing that civil judiciary is weak in these matters especially when it comes to deal with terrorism matters. This was the reason that Military Courts were established so that due to negligence of investigators in front of civil court, the terrorists may not walk freely and for the same development, every Pakistani has seen the change except those who are involved in such crimes especially political parties.

Read about the reason of establishment of Military Courts and also, political parties have been denying the same as many of their workers were involved in such crimes that parties lost the leverage in Military Court. These culprits use to influence civil court proceeding by any mean from threats to attacks and mostly, I must say almost in all cases, either witness is being threatened or killed by unknown people. Police has been negligent in such matters whereby, the real culprit walked away due to the same and lack of evidence which was totally mishandling by investigation yet Court has to release the criminal. On other hand, Police has been used for political gains by ruling elite especially PPP and PMLn as well as others in areas where innocent has been targeted yet Court has to release them as well. Even sometimes, the innocent got punished due to framed evidences by Police in Civil Court too. These were few of the core reasons where establishing Military Court become must only to deal with anti-state criminals strictly and to avoid any political influence. You will be aware if Police system and Civil Courts could have punished the criminals involved in terrorism, we would have seen peace long ago but unfortunately, due to many factors involved, such proceeding in Civil Courts did not go well.

Lawyers opposed the same like a duty in Pakistan that whatever comes by anyone else, even it is for good, needs to be opposed and still, such opposition was worthless hence, Military Courts are formed accordingly. Most of the Lawyers are party workers as well and when a party express its stance then from assembly to lawyers and wherever theirs workers are, carries the same tone.

All in all, it does not proves that Military Courts are not well trained, not independent or impartial because that works under PA. Political parties have no value in these matters that mostly are seeing their neck in rope due to their crimes, when it comes to Military Court as these culprits can influence Police Investigation easily to walk away in Civil Courts. He is rightly tried under proper Law and by Competent Court for such matters though, India can prove such in any International Court but blames as such, are not plausible.

Still, the political point scoring by parties over Military Courts, does not holds much weight as people are satisfied and Courts have done a lot for peace. However, Kulbashan a spy/terrorist has nothing to do with Civilian Court Proceeding and reservation by political parties against Military Courts has no relation with this case of Kulbashan. An Indian Naval Commander, involved in espionage and terrorism inside Pakistan, is correctly trialed in Military Court. You can also read about what UN says recently in this regard even an Indian Journalist put question.



You are always welcome and it is good to see you holding to same energy and still contributing that we will be looking forward to read about more with quality analysis and insight of the matter. I see that no one can question your contribution to the Forum and quality analysis, observations, debates and discussion for the interest of readers/members.

First of all thanks for accepting my membership on the forum as worthy and my post as my opinion.

Secondly, I would like to remind you. That there were three actions taken on my post that day
1. I was served a negative.
2. I was instructed by the mod (at 12pm,UAE time) to take this issue to my GHQ, which I did and my post was deleted.
3.Six hours later, in the evening I was served with a warning by the same mod.

Unless I'm being specifically targeted for posting my opinion, I do not see a reason why the negative is justified on a DELETED post for which I have already been warned/ given a strike for.

Further I also hope that you will raise above the NATIONAL BIAS & would post something ORIGINAL this time as well

Regards,

National bias?
No sir, the number of members I interact,irrespective of their nationalities, on the forum proves you wrong.
I come under fire from my own brethren for my neutral views.
Why should I be judged by what others post here?
As a badge holder I expected better of you than to fall for the squabbles of less acquainted ones on the forum.


Regards

 

[The Eagle]

First of all thanks for accepting my membership on the forum as worthy and my post as my opinion.

Secondly, I would like to remind you. That there were three actions taken on my post that day
1. I was served a negative.
2. I was instructed by the mod (at 12pm,UAE time) to take this issue to my GHQ, which I did and my post was deleted.
3.Six hours later, in the evening I was served with a warning by the same mod.

Unless I'm being specifically targeted for posting my opinion, I do not see a reason why the negative is justified on a DELETED post for which I have already been warned/ given a strike for.

I will say again as I said before, kindly discuss the matter in GHQ Section as open threads are not for such discussion.

Thanks

 

[Grevion]

I will say again as I said before, kindly discuss the matter in GHQ Section as open threads are not for such discussion.

Thanks

Alright so you have deleted my post, why don't you take actions against the post which i had earlier quoted??
Or that posts does not qualify as flamebaitings/thread derailing/provoking for you?

 

[Kapwercs]

Being Senior on the Forum and well knowledge, you will be aware about the credibility of DAWN (if you are not aware kindly read about Dawn Leaks) and then Political parties. PPP's own leader was on run due to Army and use to bad mouth against Establishment since start. Their reservation holds no credibility hence, not worth of consideration in these matters. Speaking of PPP, just and only read Uzair Baloch that has been involved in anti-state crimes and many others but use to roam freely around knowing that civil judiciary is weak in these matters especially when it comes to deal with terrorism matters. This was the reason that Military Courts were established so that due to negligence of investigators in front of civil court, the terrorists may not walk freely and for the same development, every Pakistani has seen the change except those who are involved in such crimes especially political parties.

Read about the reason of establishment of Military Courts and also, political parties have been denying the same as many of their workers were involved in such crimes that parties lost the leverage in Military Court. These culprits use to influence civil court proceeding by any mean from threats to attacks and mostly, I must say almost in all cases, either witness is being threatened or killed by unknown people. Police has been negligent in such matters whereby, the real culprit walked away due to the same and lack of evidence which was totally mishandling by investigation yet Court has to release the criminal. On other hand, Police has been used for political gains by ruling elite especially PPP and PMLn as well as others in areas where innocent has been targeted yet Court has to release them as well. Even sometimes, the innocent got punished due to framed evidences by Police in Civil Court too. These were few of the core reasons where establishing Military Court become must only to deal with anti-state criminals strictly and to avoid any political influence. You will be aware if Police system and Civil Courts could have punished the criminals involved in terrorism, we would have seen peace long ago but unfortunately, due to many factors involved, such proceeding in Civil Courts did not go well.

Lawyers opposed the same like a duty in Pakistan that whatever comes by anyone else, even it is for good, needs to be opposed and still, such opposition was worthless hence, Military Courts are formed accordingly. Most of the Lawyers are party workers as well and when a party express its stance then from assembly to lawyers and wherever theirs workers are, carries the same tone.

All in all, it does not proves that Military Courts are not well trained, not independent or impartial because that works under PA. Political parties have no value in these matters that mostly are seeing their neck in rope due to their crimes, when it comes to Military Court as these culprits can influence Police Investigation easily to walk away in Civil Courts. He is rightly tried under proper Law and by Competent Court for such matters though, India can prove such in any International Court but blames as such, are not plausible.

Still, the political point scoring by parties over Military Courts, does not holds much weight as people are satisfied and Courts have done a lot for peace. However, Kulbashan a spy/terrorist has nothing to do with Civilian Court Proceeding and reservation by political parties against Military Courts has no relation with this case of Kulbashan. An Indian Naval Commander, involved in espionage and terrorism inside Pakistan, is correctly trialed in Military Court. You can also read about what UN says recently in this regard even an Indian Journalist put question.



You are always welcome and it is good to see you holding to same energy and still contributing that we will be looking forward to read about more with quality analysis and insight of the matter. I see that no one can question your contribution to the Forum and quality analysis, observations, debates and discussion for the interest of readers/members.

Why are u using such a large font ?
Its difficult to read on mobile devices.
Revert to the normal font that everyone is using.

 

[HRK]

As a badge holder I expected better of you than to fall for the squabbles of less acquainted ones on the forum.


Regards

I also expect you to leave this attitude of ACCUSING others.

 

[The Eagle]

Alright so you have deleted my post, why don't you take actions against the post which i had earlier quoted??
Or that posts does not qualify as flamebaitings/thread derailing/provoking for you?

Do report such posts and what you did in last post that I delete, deserves a warning with fraction but I let it go on personal grounds and hope the same will not be repeated. Quoting the troll or offensive post or doing so in return means you are giving a free pass to others, hence, report such maters and move on.

Regards,

Why are u using such a large font ?
Its difficult to read on mobile devices.
Revert to the normal font that everyone is using.

Decrease your mobile font size, might be helpful. I use mobile too and don't see any problem even reading back my post.
Thanks

 

[Grevion]

Do report such posts and what you did in last post that I delete, deserves a warning with fraction but I let it go on personal grounds and hope the same will not be repeated. Quoting the troll or offensive post or doing so in return means you are giving a free pass to others, hence, report such maters and move on.

Regards,

So someone reported my posts hence you took actions against it? I am sorry to say but as a mod it is required from you take actions against all flamebaiting posts and not just the ones that suits your purpose. Ethically you should have also deleted the posts that I was responding to but sad to see that's not the case here.

 

[Khanate]

First of all thanks for accepting my membership on the forum as worthy and my post as my opinion.

Secondly, I would like to remind you. That there were three actions taken on my post that day
1. I was served a negative.
2. I was instructed by the mod (at 12pm,UAE time) to take this issue to my GHQ, which I did and my post was deleted.
3.Six hours later, in the evening I was served with a warning by the same mod.

Unless I'm being specifically targeted for posting my opinion, I do not see a reason why the negative is justified on a DELETED post for which I have already been warned/ given a strike for.

While I understand and sympathise with you, I'd appreciate if you can vent your personal issues regarding moderation on a separate thread rather than derailing this topic. It isn't fair to others.


Best regards.

 

[nair]

@The Eagle I thought forum discourage using personalised fonts and font size.... have seen warning members before on this issue.... if there is no such rules ignore this (rules may have amended)

 

[The Eagle]

@The Eagle I thought forum discourage using personalised fonts and font size.... have seen warning members before on this issue.... if there is no such rules ignore this (rules may have amended)

Fonts that actually used uselessly as enlarged, coloured and continuous caps lock disturbs the readers. This is just the standard size of 4 with TNR font.

 

[SQ8]

My post was an opinion that was formed after i read many NEUTRAL sources condemning the army courts from your side. I put forward the article and quotes which shaped my POV

1. The sunset clause has come under fire from your own opposition parties who want civilian judges to be included in the panel of judges in the army court, this is an indicator that neither the government nor the army has been able to convince everyone about the proceedings of military court.

View attachment 391012




2. The main objection has so far been that in 94.5 per cent of these cases most of them were convicted on the basis of confessions, this despite the fact that in regular murder cases, convictions on the basis of judicial confessions aren't even 5 percent in Pakistan. In many cases family members of the accused had alleged that their relatives were coerced into confessing, were not given access to lawyers of their choice, or to the evidence being used against them. View attachment 391013 http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/...y-courts-terror-suspects-170321143432673.html





3. Now, Kulbhushan,RAW agent according to Pak army was arrested on 3rd march 2016. But was tried in the army court. While 3 suspected RAW agents, were tried and acquitted by a civilian court, 23rd october 2016. This gives enough space for the arguments of layman like me questioning KJ's trial.

View attachment 391015

https://www.dawn.com/news/1291602





4. Infact, the military courts were vehemently opposed by the lawyers of Pakistan, for it being against the constitution itself. So me as an Indian questioning the same is no way disrespectful to your institutions. I had specifically cited "training" of those involved as for sure those in army courts arent as experienced and trained as the civilian lawyers.

View attachment 391016

https://www.dawn.com/news/1160372



***********************************




I had tagged some knowledgeable Indians and Pakistanis like you all and @WAJsal ,@Arsalan , whom I'm sure are used to my tagging them to posts where i need a second opinion. Thank you.

***************************************


1. This is your assumption sir.
2. You have to accept the fact that military courts in US and Pakistan do NOT function in similar ways. So in no way your quoting US Manual for Military Commissions helps the point we're discussing.

******************************************

Bringing this to your notice @The Eagle @WebMaster @Slav Defence , 5 pages on this thread the member who marked me negative has yet to give his POV on the subject and also justify his action. I do NOT hold any personal grudge against him, for i look forward to having a discussion on this forum as much as you do. But i object to stifling the debate by marking my post negative for reasons known better only to the member.
I for one post an opinion on this forum after making sufficient research on the topic. 3 years on this forum and i have written many original articles, hence the 59 positive ratings in my profile. I assume that's enough to prove the reason I still exist on the forum.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Regards

He entire post of yours hinges on the idea that yadav is treated as a civilian z since he is an enemy combatant, the laws of Pakistan army which you sure the heck have no idea about and regardless of your positive or negative ratings are ill qualified and clearly lack the knowledgeable to comment upon.

In summation, you are wasting time in semantics which are irrelevant to enemy combatants.
And the treatment of enemy spies is pretty much an open and shut case. Since if the leader of the free world is clear about hanging or shooting them, we are clearly not as refined in our treatment of spies and so will probably follow suit.

He dies, why, where, how is irrelevant when it comes to a spy under military jurisdiction.

Sure, you can spend the next 3 weeks trying to find research clauses and nuances in Pakistan civil law and precedent; but lets be realistic- you m'lady doth protest too much.

 

[Zen0]

Either this or he is already dead , isi would never give up a tool like this.