PAK FA with 'Brahmos'

[gubbi]

A making sure Pakistan can defend itself without having to resort to the nuclear option is in the U.S. interests.

Yup, as long as Indian military doesnt directly threaten a large swath of the Pakistan's territory in the event of a war, precipitating a nuclear counterattack. But then, US cannot and will not interfere, for Indian govt is not stupid to cross the nuclear threshold, while accomplishing its political and military objectives.

The primary concern for US is the root of AQ and Taliban ideology and sanctuaries in the Af - Pak region and will fund/help Pakistan to counter only these. A few novelty toys are being thrown into the mix just to help keep them happy. Those toys will be at most a minor headache to Indian military.

So, no. US doesnt have interests in defending Pakistan against India, but does indeed have interest in helping Pakistan tackle the Taliban/AQ menace.

 

[BATMAN]

A few novelty toys are being thrown into the mix just to help keep them happy. Those toys will be at most a minor headache to Indian military.

Are you reffering to F-16 deal from ancient times?

 

[Thomas]

So are you saying USAF will never use F35 with cruise or stand off missiles? Of course it is a disadvantage for the stealth feature, but that is only one side of the aircraft right? They still have other roles too and F35 in USN might use Harpoon only external, but it still will be a useful fighter or?
Also who said that air launched Brahmos is aimed on Pakistan? That makes no sense, because even the land based version offers enough range to reach targets in Pakistan. The air launched version in combination with the extended range of MKI is clearly aimed on deep penetration strikes in China.

The U.S. has bombers to fill that role. here is the U.S. version of the hypersonic Brahmos.

Boeing X-51 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BATMAN]

They are the Shadow aerial drones.

Well thanks for the clarification and this is first time i learned that in US it is known as 1000$ drone!
I hope Pakistan could get some helis.... those would serve our needs better as we already are using local made drones.

India does not have an operational nuclear device... its test were failure and it is aknowledged by their missing scientists.
To prevent nuclear war in south asia i believe it is better to not facilitate indians in producing one.

 

[Thomas]

So, no. US doesnt have interests in defending Pakistan against India, but does indeed have interest in helping Pakistan tackle the Taliban/AQ menace.

We will disagree on this subject. Any Indian attack that destabilizes Pakistan would be of U.S. interest.

 

[sancho]

The U.S. has bombers to fill that role. here is the U.S. version of the hypersonic Brahmos.

Interesting, but my question was won't F35 use cruise, stand off, or anti-ship missiles only because it will lose its main advantage?

Storm Shadow: 5,1m
Harpoon: 4,7m
JASSM: 4,27m

 

[Thomas]

Well thanks for the clarification and this is first time i learned that in US it is known as 1000$ drone!
I hope Pakistan could get some helis.... those would serve our needs better as we already are using local made drones.

India does not have an operational nuclear device... its test were failure and it is aknowledged by their missing scientists.
To prevent nuclear war in south asia i believe it is better to not facilitate indians in producing one.

it's what's in the drones that matters. the Camera and sensors in the shadow are quite good.

 

[ramu]

Pakistan is getting drone technology. nuclear deal has nothing to do with strategic defense. not sure on the Phalcon will have to research it more. As relations get better between Pakistan and the U.S. you will see Pakistan getting more technology that in the past the U.S. was resistant to providing. The drones are a recent example. And we still have to wait and see just what the all the upgrades will be on the Perry class frigates Pakistan is getting. If they do install the evolved sea sparrow that will give it's navy the ability to protect itself from Brahmos including the hypersonic version.

Does this make you unhappy?

Not predator drones as you rightly mentioned. Nuclear deal has nothing to do with strategic defence.. Really ? What about dual use technology ?
Good if that happens ... The evolved sea sparrow has not been pitched against the Brahmos let alone hyper sonic variants and the result of that contest in fiction to say the least. About the big If on Pakistan getting the evolved sea sparrow, do you anything at all to substantiate your claim or is it just speculative?

About it making me unhappy ... you have not said anything that is new to make me happy or unhappy.

 

[gambit]

If pakFa is stealth, you would be foolish to launch a Brahmos from it by defyin g the very purpose for which the plane is made. You need to rethink this one my friend.
regards
Araz

Two things you have to consider....

1) Brahmos is a stealthy missile. Lots of measures have been taken to make the missile as stealthy as possible.

2) They might improve the missile, most possibly the hypersonic version will be there with PAK FA. The HB already undergone lab tests.

That is not how 'stealth' works. Mating two LO bodies together does not guarantee low radar reflectivity. An object's radar reflectivity, regardless of aspect disposition to the seeker radar, is the result of how the radar signal behave on the surfaces. If the body is designed to be LO, then all aspects are precisely calculated with this behavior in mind. Mating two LO bodies together without considering this behavior on a greater surface area actually compromise low radar reflectivity of both bodies. The better and naturally more expensive option is to redesign the missile, mate it to the aircraft, and redesign the aircraft -- if necessary -- to maintain the original RCS goal.

 

[Thomas]

Not predator drones as you rightly mentioned. Nuclear deal has nothing to do with strategic defence.. Really ? What about dual use technology ?
Good if that happens ... The evolved sea sparrow has not been pitched against the Brahmos let alone hyper sonic variants and the result of that contest in fiction to say the least. About the big If on Pakistan getting the evolved sea sparrow, do you anything at all to substantiate your claim or is it just speculative?

About it making me unhappy ... you have not said anything that is new to make me happy or unhappy.

"Nuclear deal has nothing to do with strategic defence" - I see the U.S. providing Pakistan with anything at this time that is only for defensive means. Or for use in the war on terror. Obviously dual use reactors would be a no go. If they asked for light water reactors that might be a different story. But that is not what they want which is up to them. China is more then glad to supply them dual use.

"The evolved sea sparrow has not been pitched against the Brahmos let alone hyper sonic variants" - with a mach 4+ speed ESSM is designed to counter supersonic maneuvering anti-ship missiles. if a hypersonic missile is incoming to a ship equpped with ESSM. ESSM's mach 4+ speed still makes it a capable defender. if it has to play catch up to a hypersonic Brahmos of course it doesn't have the speed to do so.


Raytheons brochure for ESSM explicitly states it is designed to counter threats such as Brahmos.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/rtnwcm/groups/rms/documents/content/rtn_rms_ps_essm_datasheet.pdf

Threat Coverage
• High-speed, highly maneuverable
anti-ship missiles (SS-N-22,
Brahmos, etc.)
• Moderately fast and agile anti-ship
missiles (Exocet, etc.)
• Aircraft
• Helicopters
• Surface targets

 

[gambit]

Time will tell, I still see zero sense in putting it on the T-50 UB. It defeats the whole purpose of it's design as a stealthy air superiority fighter. Why put it on the T-50 when the Su-30/35 can do it better. Also while currently Pakistan doesn't have anything to defeat Brahmos effectivly. That will most likely change since it is in the interests of the U.S. to make sure Pakistan can defend itself against the Brahmos.

So are you saying USAF will never use F35 with cruise or stand off missiles? Of course it is a disadvantage for the stealth feature, but that is only one side of the aircraft right? They still have other roles too and F35 in USN might use Harpoon only external, but it still will be a useful fighter or?

The U.S. has bombers to fill that role.

Interesting, but my question was won't F35 use cruise, stand off, or anti-ship missiles only because it will lose its main advantage?

The F-35 can compromise its LO either when the situation demands weapons delivery to override its LO integrity or when the airborne threat in the local area is no longer the deciding factor in the fight. But if there is an option using dedicated bombing platform to deliver overwhelming ordnance on the target, then it is better to keep the F-35 as an LO precision strike and uses those dedicated bombing platforms.

If the PRAT-FALL is supposed to be a dedicated air superiority fighter exploiting any LO capability it has, then mating the Brahmos to the aircraft would be needlessly costly when the compromised low radar reflectivity is the same as other aircrafts that already is multi-role assigned by design.

 

[gubbi]

We will disagree on this subject. Any Indian attack that destabilizes Pakistan would be of U.S. interest.

That is exactly my point. Indian attack will not try to destabilize Pakistan per se, but rather set and meet certain political and military goals. India stands to lose a lot from a destabilized neighbor.

 

[S-A-B-E-R->]

thank you lca tegas for the clarification but there is a question ...how gud is the homing system cus if at hyper sonic speeds it misses the target ....nearly impossible to get back on it also if it is a frag type system ..wont the fragmentation wid lots of ke move in the direction of missel flight path rather than hitting the near by plane ....(we did a same test in Australia wid an explosive steel projectile ..it only had speed of 450m/h an when it detonated 3 meters( aprox) from a moving target wid max speed of 150m/h ...there were only a few shrads of settl that damaged the light aluminium skin the rest were scattered nearly a mile ahed ...(plz comment)

 

[gen x]

USA want good relation between India and Pakistan and it is also good for health of Pakistan to act on terrorist

Pakistan real enemy is Taliban

 

[faithfulguy]

That is exactly my point. Indian attack will not try to destabilize Pakistan per se, but rather set and meet certain political and military goals. India stands to lose a lot from a destabilized neighbor.

The interest of the US is to ensure peace between India and Pakistan. Because Pakistan has much less resource than India, pakistan is supported with military aids. Also because Pakistan would use nukes because of the inbalance, a Pakistan with stronger conventional weaponry would make India think twice before attacking Pakistan to overwhelm it in 96 hours and prevent a nuclear war.