PAK FA with 'Brahmos'

[Abi]

self delete

 

[gubbi]

I don't see anything saying the T-50 is getting a shortened version of the Brahmos. It all refers to the Su-30 getting it. you need to realize also just how much they need to shorten the missile to make it fit inside an internal weapons bay.

IMHO, I dont think it matters if the PAK-FA carries the missile on an external pylon. IIRC, PAK-Fa is not a VVLO aircraft but was built to be a 'vLO' aircraft. Its not designed to penetrate air defences only, but also is an air-superiority fighter. We still dont know the specifics of its RCS and anyway, what we saw was just a prototype. Expect improvements and modifications in the future.

That being said, in case there happens to be a need for a sneak attack, PAK-FA carrying a newer version of Brahmos can very well do the job - doesnt matter if the bomb is carried on external pylons - no one in the neighborhood would have anything to counter it. Period. Once the bomb/missile is released, the RCS significantly reduces and the aircraft would scoot back safely.

But then its all speculation, though I can speculate a role for this combo in sneak pre-emptive attacks. It is not going to be just a bomb truck - too advanced for such a role, better left to strike aircraft from the MMRCA or the ones in our present inventory - led by the formidable PAK-FA.

 

[sancho]

I don't see anything saying the T-50 is getting a shortened version of the Brahmos. It all refers to the Su-30 getting it. you need to realize also just how much they need to shorten the missile to make it fit inside an internal weapons bay.

It makes no sense that MKI gets weapons, that the NG stealth fighters couldn't use, especially if these weapons are still in development! So it should be clear that the lighter and smaller Brahmos is aimed mainly for Pak Fa / FGFA, but I agree that it could also just mean, they use it on the wing staitions, the point was smaller versions are under development.

I don't see the problem in make the missile smaller, because that depends on what performance it should have at the end (speed, range, warhead size). The frist air launched Brahmos for example will have only 1 booster instead of 2, which makes it shorter, bit it used the speed of the fighter to have the same performance as the land based.
The real problem I see for carrying a later Brahmos internally are the 2 seperated weapon bays that the Pak Fa prototypes has. If you check the pics, you will see that there is a part between them, which might be different at later versions, but with these part such long missiles can't be used there.
The picture you posted is PS btw and shows a landbased version of Brahmos, so don't take that as a base.

 

[BATMAN]

Honestly, brahmos won't be carried internally. Pakfa has provision for two external hardpoints for these kind of missiles.
As for stealth, it won't compromise on stealth because the range of brahmos is 290-350 kms, so it will be released way before entering enemy airspace. For other aircraft to detect Pakfa, that aircraft would have to come 50-80 kms near Pakfa. Before that Pakfa would have already launched the Brahmos, thereby not compromising on stealth at all.

How about AWACS! can they see it or not?

If Brahmos (A2G) has to be launched from distance than what is the point in mounting those on T-50? why not on mig-21 or su30!

Once Brahmos is launched than there is no need for any more stealth ride. i guess all T-50 in range will be shot at sight, or as you mentioned the detection range as 50-80 km range.

 

[Thomas]

It makes no sense that MKI gets weapons, that the NG stealth fighters couldn't use, especially if these weapons are still in development! So it should be clear that the lighter and smaller Brahmos is aimed mainly for Pak Fa / FGFA, but I agree that it could also just mean, they use it on the wing staitions, the point was smaller versions are under development.

I don't see the problem in make the missile smaller, because that depends on what performance it should have at the end (speed, range, warhead size). The frist air launched Brahmos for example will have only 1 booster instead of 2, which makes it shorter, bit it used the speed of the fighter to have the same performance as the land based.
The real problem I see for carrying a later Brahmos internally are the 2 seperated weapon bays that the Pak Fa prototypes has. If you check the pics, you will see that there is a part between them, which might be different at later versions, but with these part such long missiles can't be used there.
The picture you posted is PS btw and shows a landbased version of Brahmos, so don't take that as a base.

Time will tell, I still see zero sense in putting it on the T-50 UB. It defeats the whole purpose of it's design as a stealthy air superiority fighter. Why put it on the T-50 when the Su-30/35 can do it better. Also while currently Pakistan doesn't have anything to defeat Brahmos effectivly. That will most likely change since it is in the interests of the U.S. to make sure Pakistan can defend itself against the Brahmos.

 

[BATMAN]

Wait a minute was he actually tryin to say "reduce some weight of brahmos"????
If yes i am sorry for my post. Plz do see to it that u use proper words.
And abt the junk thingy that still remains...........blah blah blah

Never mind..... Baloon and Brahmoos are close. I was actually proposing to reduce the size.

How do you translate 'khokha' which indian ACM termed to Russian mig-35.
Imagine if su-35 is 'khokha' than all what is in indian inventry is even inferior.

 

[ramu]

Time will tell, I still see zero sense in putting it on the T-50 UB. It defeats the whole purpose of it's design as a stealthy air superiority fighter. Why put it on the T-50 when the Su-30/35 can do it better. Also while currently Pakistan doesn't have anything to defeat Brahmos effectivly. That will most likely change since it is in the interests of the U.S. to make sure Pakistan can defend itself against the Brahmos.

Why is it not in the US's interest to give Pakistan a nuclear deal. Why is it not in US's interest to allow Pakistan acquire Phalcon technology. Why is it not in US's interest to provide Pakistan drone technology?

Not sure where you are coming from ....

 

[Thomas]

Why is it not in the US's interest to give Pakistan a nuclear deal. Why is it not in US's interest to allow Pakistan acquire Phalcon technology. Why is it not in US's interest to provide Pakistan drone technology?

Not sure where you are coming from ....

Pakistan is getting drone technology. nuclear deal has nothing to do with strategic defense. not sure on the Phalcon will have to research it more. As relations get better between Pakistan and the U.S. you will see Pakistan getting more technology that in the past the U.S. was resistant to providing. The drones are a recent example. And we still have to wait and see just what the all the upgrades will be on the Perry class frigates Pakistan is getting. If they do install the evolved sea sparrow that will give it's navy the ability to protect itself from Brahmos including the hypersonic version.

Does this make you unhappy?

 

[AVADI]

Pakistan is getting drone technology. nuclear deal has nothing to do with strategic defense. not sure on the Phalcon will have to research it more. As relations get better between Pakistan and the U.S. you will see Pakistan getting more technology that in the past the U.S. was resistant to providing. The drones are a recent example. And we still have to wait and see just what the all the upgrades will be on the Perry class frigates Pakistan is getting. If they do install the evolved sea sparrow that will give it's navy the ability to protect itself from Brahmos including the hypersonic version.

Does this make you unhappy?

I would be happy to see U.S. providing more technologically advanced weapon to Pakistan the more u give to Pakistan the government in the center will realize instead of buying arm's worth billions of $ from U.S. it will invest those $ in local development which in turn creates more job's at home.

 

[BATMAN]

Reply to Thomas: we don't mind having good relations with US but what is the drone example you reffered..Sir?
I know we bought F-16 and MLU kits ...but nothing beyond is on horizon!

 

[sancho]

Time will tell, I still see zero sense in putting it on the T-50 UB. It defeats the whole purpose of it's design as a stealthy air superiority fighter. Why put it on the T-50 when the Su-30/35 can do it better. Also while currently Pakistan doesn't have anything to defeat Brahmos effectivly. That will most likely change since it is in the interests of the U.S. to make sure Pakistan can defend itself against the Brahmos.

So are you saying USAF will never use F35 with cruise or stand off missiles? Of course it is a disadvantage for the stealth feature, but that is only one side of the aircraft right? They still have other roles too and F35 in USN might use Harpoon only external, but it still will be a useful fighter or?
Also who said that air launched Brahmos is aimed on Pakistan? That makes no sense, because even the land based version offers enough range to reach targets in Pakistan. The air launched version in combination with the extended range of MKI is clearly aimed on deep penetration strikes in China.

 

[gubbi]

How about AWACS! can they see it or not?

No. AWACS cannot 'see' VLO aircraft.

If Brahmos (A2G) has to be launched from distance than what is the point in mounting those on T-50? why not on mig-21 or su30!

Excellent point. I said the same thing in my precious post.

Once Brahmos is launched than there is no need for any more stealth ride. i guess all T-50 in range will be shot at sight, or as you mentioned the detection range as 50-80 km range.

[/quote]
What are you talking about? Can you be more specific?
And you think it is very easy to scramble aircraft BEFORE a VLO aircraft enters your airspace? And even after the aircraft epmties its payload and skoots, will you have time to respond? Remember in '97 when a IAF MiG-25 buzzed Islamabad? And that MiG wasnt even stealth to boot.

 

[gubbi]

Time will tell, I still see zero sense in putting it on the T-50 UB. It defeats the whole purpose of it's design as a stealthy air superiority fighter. Why put it on the T-50 when the Su-30/35 can do it better.

True.

Also while currently Pakistan doesn't have anything to defeat Brahmos effectivly. That will most likely change since it is in the interests of the U.S. to make sure Pakistan can defend itself against the Brahmos.

US interests are seeing that Pakistan and its nukes dont fall to religious fundamentalists. As regards to Pakistani capability to defend against Indian attack, Pakistan is on its own, US wont interfere, unless India crosses Pakistan's nuke threshold.

 

[Thomas]

Reply to Thomas: we don't mind having good relations with US but what is the drone example you reffered..Sir?
I know we bought F-16 and MLU kits ...but nothing beyond is on horizon!

They are the Shadow aerial drones. They are not predators by no means. But they are very effective and have won high praise from U.S. military commanders that have used them. In fact the U.S. has used them in the past to gather intel in Iran's nuke sites.

GIs praise next generation of aerial drones | Stars and Stripes

Iran Protests U.S. Aerial Drones - washingtonpost.com

Here is an interesting video on the implications of unmanned warfare

 

[Thomas]

As regards to Pakistani capability to defend against Indian attack, Pakistan is on its own, US wont interfere, unless India crosses Pakistan's nuke threshold.

A making sure Pakistan can defend itself without having to resort to the nuclear option is in the U.S. interests.