PAK-FA takes to the sky!

[Awesome]

Its definitely a game changer thrown in by the Russians.

I wonder which way the Indians would really swing. The Americans or the Russians.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

However, Russia will go on and sell stuff like every other nation too (US for example to India), the difference is only Russia won't sell latest techs, or arms to potential threats of India that are superior to those that are on offer for India. Russian officals said that they don't see a problem in RD 93 sale for JF 17/FC1, because IAF has similar engine since years and it's still better that those fighters gets this engines, instead of possibly better western (Snecma engines was rumoured for a long too). Neither RD93, nor AL 31 for J10 are offered superior to those engines that are on offer for IAF,nor are they offered with the same tech (TVC) as IAF could get.
Compare that with US now, that offers F16 with superior techs to India, GE404 and now 414, or even 414 EPE engines for LCA, besides all the other techs and arms they offer directly, even without waiting for RFIs (Hellfire missiles, V22, E-2D...).

India can't prevent Russia from selling to China, or even to Pakistan, but as long as it has limitiations and won't give India a clear disadvantage, it should be not a big deal right?

If a fighter like JF-17 with an RD-93 can integrate western avionics & weapons (they are no offer & PAF will surely go for them, suppose its a Medium Tech Fighter) can be a threat, because a MICA from FC-1 will be as effective as MICA from a Rafale
& the way chinese are catching up these AL-31s Sold can be a problem don't you think so
coming back to Americans, money is involved here no one wants a 12 Billion Dollar contract to go out of hands, thats why every one will play politics along with usual 'Masala' in weapons for country which is ready to buy everything

anyways found an interesting article for Al-31 will like to share, it has got a very large market no way Russikies will loose it...

The AL-31F is a high-efficient, high temperature turbofan with module configuration to be installed on SU-37, SU-30MK aircraft as well as on other modification of SU-27S.

The AL-31F can operate in a wide range of reliably altitudes and flight speeds. The engine works reliably in conditions of deep surge of the air intake with M=2 as well as in flat, straight and inverted spins. The engine ensures unique aircraft maneuverability including super dynamic aerobatics in negative speeds up to 200 km/h.

The AL-31F provides high gas dynamic stability and strength which maintain engine reliable performance in extreme condition of inlet distortion. The AL-31F can be manufactured both in standard and tropic version.

Reports of deliveries made through 2002 and planned transfers of large quantities of aircraft of the Su-27/30 family permit a relatively accurate estimate of this segment of the AL-31F engine market. We use the average price of $2.8 million per engine. The actual price fluctuates between $2.7 million and $3 million, but some of the payments, especially in the early 1990s, were made by commodity deliveries or on a clearing basis. Twenty eight Su-27UBK combat trainers were delivered to China in 2000-2002 by way of payment of Russian government debts. We estimate the price of AL-31FP en*gines for Su-30MKIs at $3 million.

It should be noted that the standard international practice is to deliver 30% of reserve engines along with a commercial batch. There has been no information in the Russian press about such deliveries, but if we assume that engines were delivered on such a scale - either along with commercial consignments or shortly thereafter - the delivery of the 350 AL-31F engines to China, India and Vietnam installed on aircraft would have been followed by the shipment of approximately 100 engines, a value of up to $280 million. With the engines being used in the mountain conditions of high humidity and temperatures, and with Chinese and Indian pilots currently lacking the necessary experience .We already know that China has chosen the AL-31F engine modification with the low-set unit arrangement - the AL-31FN - for its J-10 light fighter, developed from Israel's Lavi project. The Russian press has reported a contract for 300 such engines. Sometime in 2005-2007, when the fleet of Su-27/30/J-11 heavy fighters reaches 350 units, China will need to manufacture 600-800 fourth-generation light fighters to balance its Air Force, not counting probable exports (primarily to Pakistan and Iran). This means that total demand will reach 1,000 AL-31FN engines at the nominal price of $2.8 billion. It is clear that China is unlikely to import such quantities of engines, especially after the license for their production has been sold to India. Therefore, we can expect that, within a few years, when the question of launching the large-scale production of J-10 appears on the agenda, China will want to acquire the right to assemble AL-31F or AL-31FN engines at its own facilities. A less favorable option for Russia is that China will manage to develop its own analog of AL-31. However, even in this case, Russia will be able to deliver up to 300 contract engines and probably individual high-tech components for the Chinese analogs.

It is less likely that AL-31Fs will be installed on India's LCA fighters. First of all, India is trying to develop its own Kaveri engine. Its chances are poor, but that does not greatly improve the outlook for AL-31F. The problem is that the LCA project has dragged on for too long and, as a result, the prototype has grown obsolete before the beginning of its serial production and even before the end of its testing. Given India's plans to import large quantities of Su-30MKI multi-use fighters, MiG-29K naval fighters and Mirage 2000s, the scale of funding for the LCA project rules out the possibility of any serial production in the near future.

Thus, if reports about the contract for 300 AL-31FN engines are true, at present we can assume with a high degree of certainty that deliveries of engines and their components, combined with the possible transfer of documentation and technologies for the production of AL-31Fs in China for its national J-10 fighter, may reach $800-850 million.

Market of AL-31F upgrading

The AL-31F engine was developed in the mid-1970s for fighters with a takeoff weigh of 23 tonnes and maximum takeoff weight of 28 tonnes. Hence two engines with a maximum thrust of 7.8 tonnes and afterburning thrust of 12.5 tonnes guaranteed Su-27 interceptors a fairly good thrust-to-weight ratio. Later the Sukhoi Design Bureau derived a number of upgraded modifications with greater capabilities from the basic model. Moreover, in this sense Su-27 not simply shared the fate of the majority of successful fighters of the third and fourth generations that went through several stages of upgrading but proved to be a very flexible aircraft with a relatively ample advancement potential. Traditionally such advancement implies the enhancement of the strike potential and the addition of a second pilot. Clearly this implies an increase in the regular and maximum takeoff weight of the aircraft. On the average during the lifetime of a fighter family the weight grows at the rate of one percent a year and the Su-27/30 series definitely fits the pattern. The general parameters of aircraft of this series are shown in Table 3.

It is paradoxical that while the combat capabilities of Su-27/30 fighters have been dynamically boosted, efforts to enhance the thrust of AL-31F engines have been lagging behind badly. As a result such a crucial parameter for aircraft of the fourth generation as thrust-to-weight ratio is unsatisfactory in the latest modifications of Su-30. Moreover, the fact that in India and China Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK are used in a hot and humid environment and often in mountainous conditions makes things even worse. These conditions further undermine the thrust-to-weight ratio of the aircraft delivered of foreign customers.

This alone creates sufficient prerequisites for replacing AL-31F engines with more powerful ones in four plus generation fighters delivered to China and India in the foreseeable future. Such a replacement may be conducted simultaneously and in a package with building up the computer capabilities of onboard radioelectornic systems and offering new air-borne weaponry. Russian upgrading programs should offer an edge over Israeli projects sponging on Russian platforms.

In addition to adjusting Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK to modern thrust-to-weigh ratio requirements the engine thrust enhancement may come handy in the context of the probable integration of longer range and consequently heavier weapons, especially of the air-to-surface class. The PJ-10 3-tonne anti-ship missile may become such a weapon for the Indian fighters and the air-borne version of the Moskit (SS-N-22 Sunburn) ship-to-ship missile for Chinese. In general Russia should launch work now to offer competitive packages of upgrading fighters delivered to China and India with the enhancement of their energy capabilities as their crucial component.

The market of AL-31F engines with an enhanced thrust is not limited to the Su-30MKI aircraft sold under delivery or license contracts. The following conclusions can be made about market volumes of these engines in the 1990s and in the near future, based on the most conservative estimates of the price of the AL-31F and its modifications, and the demand of the Chinese and Indian Air Forces for aircraft of the Su-27/30 series:

The nominal price of engines transferred in the framework of contracts completed in the 1990s was $980 million. The price of engines transferred in addition to the delivery contracts is estimated at up to $280 million.

According to open sources, delivery contracts provide for the transfer of 138 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines, worth up to $385 million, in 2003-2005.

The biggest revenues are expected from the license contracts for the production of J-11s in China and Su-30MKIs in India. The minimal price of the engine component of the deals is about $1.7 billion.

China's minimal need for AL-31FN engines for launching the production of the J-10 light fighter is 300 units, worth $850 million. Production on a larger scale will require the acquisition of a license for the manufacture of AL-31FN engines at local facilities or the development of a Chinese analog of the engine.

Thus, even according to the most conservative estimates, the AL-31 engine market in the coming decade may run up to some $3 billion.

back to Topic

If there is any news regarding AL-41 then please share because uptill i have only read about PAK-FA prototype using the 117N(variant of Al-31)

The 117Ñ engine is a deep modernization of the AL-31F engine (generation 4++)

The 117Ñ is an aircraft turbofan engine with a variable thrust nozzle of generation 4++ developed by NPO Saturn to the Sukhoi Design Bureau order for the export Su-35 fighter.

The 117Ñ engine is a deep thrust-life modernization of the AL-31FP, which will be installed on the latest Sukhoi Su-30/Su-30MKI aircraft.

The modernized engine thrust has been increased by 16% compared to the base AL-31FP engine, and has reached 14500 kgf, the lifetime has been doubled, up to 4000 hours.

Such high parameters, on retention of the overall dimensions and weight, are attained due to application of an absolutely new high-tech low pressure compressor with increased air flow and efficiency, a new high-performance turbine of increased reliability with an improved blade cooling system and digital engine control system integrated with the aircraft control system.

The declared parameters have been confirmed in the course of the demonstrator engine bench and flight tests. A special NPO Saturn achievement is a stable and reliable operation of the engine at Mach number exceeding 2, which was obtained in the course of the demonstrator flight tests.

As for geometry and attachment points on the aircraft, the 117Ñ engine conforms to its predecessors, generation 4 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines. This makes it possible, with slightly developed engine nacelles and equipment, to use the 117Ñ engine for modernization of the entire aircraft fleet of previously manufactured Su-27/Su-30, operational both by the Russian and foreign Air Force.

On 19 February 2008, a new 117Ñ-powered Su-35 aircraft successfully performed its first test flight.

 

[sancho]

@ gubbi

Shouldn't the N-LCA get such LERX too?



Also, can't these LERX have L Band radar arrays integrated?

L-Band Array Angular Coverage
The basic array design and integration into the leading edge flap structure are well documented via a wealth of imagery produced at the MAKS 2009 event. Each array employs twelve antenna elements. Three quad TR modules each drive four antenna elements, for a total of twelve elements per array, in three subarrays. The linear array is embedded in the leading edge of the wing flap, with the geometrical broadside direction normal to the leading edge. The leading edge skin of the flap covering the AESA is a dielectric radome which is conformal with the flap leading edge shape.

Assessing the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array

 

[footmarks]

what are those facts that pakfa is better ok it is better but reality is u willl remain nuts becoz russians sell u those things which they dont want MIG 29 becoz of crashes they keept them on ground and indian bought new MIG 29K russian old aircraft carrier useless india buyed and signed a contact and its price is keep going high everyday at that same prize india would have buyed nimitz class AC and SU 30 russian never have that SU 30 in its airforce russia will bring new SU 37 for its airforce but india is nuts and russia are playing with your money story in submarine akula classs its tech is soo old russia decomisiong them and india is taking them on lease what else u want to hear add one one more failure pakfa and brahmos

ya, you're so right. that's why China is commissioning JF-17 like anything into PLAAF.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Lo!!! Oh I can see the level of your analytical skill..

My post a troll????


What was wrong with it?? If we make it superior you have problem if we say its inferior then also you have problem.. God bless you girl...

I just framed a scenario, an avg person would have understood my post.. Sorry it was a troll don't bother to reply me again,,, I want someone with better knowledge,, MASTER KHAN..

I never called you a Troll, If you don't know how to connect replies with your poste then its not my problem, BOY

BTW its Mastan Khan not Master Khan

 

[Myth_buster_1]

had I been a pakistani, I wouldn't have cared if it is as worthy as F-22, I would have instead tried to figure out what I have to counter this Military development. Just give a little stress on your mind and think that way.. Belittling this AC is a fanboy stuff and when we don't want to face the harsh reality that we don't have anything to counter such development..

You think our AHQ is just waiting for the day when PAK-FA takes off and then they will move their *****? lol. PAF has already selected their 5th generation requirement which is Chinese J-XX.

Believe me, if the condition has reciprocated, Pakistan being developing and India sitting duck, I wouldn't have given a f**k about if it is as capable as F 22 raptor, But I surely would have ejaculated to look for some counter.

what the fudge are you talking about?

This is not as good as F 22 and even F 35 but is slightly better than Euro Fighter,,,[/COLOR][/B]

Spot on mate! yep. slightly better then EF-2000.

Now tell me what Pakistan is going to do against 250 of these????

will India buy 250 of these. kindly provide me a link to it.

 

[Kinshuk]

I never called you a Troll, If you don't know how to connect replies with your poste then its not my problem, BOY

BTW its Mastan Khan not Master Khan

I apologies I misunderstood.

And yes Mastan Khan..

 

[mrwarrior006]

first people used to say PAKFA is rumor
and mock about

now when its in open people are trying to degrade -hence wait till 2015 world will see the truth again

 

[Kinshuk]

will India buy 250 of these. kindly provide me a link to it.

In almost all the links, I don't know how many did you read actually, It is clearly mentioned India has planned to Buy 250 FGFAs,,, You still want a link??? Or you can just check some on your own bro, you will get this figure easily... Thanks

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

what ever it looks gud to me..
we cannot discuss its abilities and stealthy features cuz its just a first prototype and we r blind,don't know any of its detail.

OR YAHAN HAR KOI APNI HANK RAHA HAI no buddy knows complete details of stealth structure,cuz its never fully exposed in media.no buddy knows any thing related to stealth features cuz Pakistan haven't any stealth project AT ALL.


super falcon i have seen u posting same word throughout the thread "CRAP". ain't there more word in ur vocabulary.

 

[Storm Force]

I think those So called PAF fanboys calling PAK FA crap and cheap need to take their heads out of the sand.

This is the first 5th GEN FIGHTER ever built after F22 & JSF.

It has a very angled Tail and sharp curves which means the RCS is going to be very very low. in deed.

ADD RAM coating

Internal weapons bay AND you have a very low observable fgfa. for the IAF & RUSSIAN air forces

THIS PAK FA will carry the ibris AESA 400 KM TRACKING radar. And BVR missles that engage at mach 5 at 300km

It will blow anything and everything out of the sky bar F22/JSF .

It looks like a Flanker redesigned to reduce RCS SIGNIFICANTLY

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Sir growler,

And I thought only my jokes are bad... Chinese technology better thats why your very best fighter using Russian Engine..

NO NO NO... RUSSIAN TECHNOLOGY GOODER so why is IAF using IAI and French avionics on MKI?

IAF rubbished that it wants F 35.. It is Indian navy who is interested in it and its offer is open, you don't wanna accept it, good for your health.

correct me if i am not wrong. is IAF and IN together practically wants entire aircraft of the world? well thats according to fanboys.
Just because some Indian defense military institute shows interest purchasing it you guys all of sudden jump to conclusion that IAF is buying this IN buying that. i mean come on guys.. be realistic and grow up.

PAKFA is not superior to F 22 and F 35... And many Indians are accepting that even if don't have any facts.

Thank you!! thats what all i am trying to say...

 

[gogbot]

first people used to say PAKFA is rumor
and mock about

now when its in open people are trying to degrade -hence wait till 2015 world will see the truth again

You cant expect Rational behavioral from Irrational people.

The people degrading PAk-FA are just .

Blinded by Emotion or either they are just jerks.

They will only make pointless remarks and Uninformed arguments. So long as it serves their purpose, and satisfies their ego.

credit where credit is due is not acceptable to them.

Even if Hundreds of fighters are inducted in India and Russia.

They will find some way make an argument on why the plane still sucks.

Don't bother trying to get logical responses from Il-logical people

 

[DaRk WaVe]

correct me if i am not wrong. is IAF and IN together practically wants entire aircraft of the world? well thats according to fanboys.
Just because some Indian defense military institute shows interest purchasing it you guys all of sudden jump to conclusion that IAF is buying this IN buying that. i mean come on guys.. be realistic and grow up.

 

[Gucci Juice]

i dont see the point in all of these flames, the pak-fa is a prototype and is the 3rd 5th generation fighter in the entire world the production variant is likely to be a LOT different.

my point is, no matter what the flames no other fighter can match the pak-fa except for the f-22 and maybe the f-35

i would expect the pak-fa to get a kill ratio of 50:1 against the likes of jf-17, j-10, j-11. and 20:1 against ef, rafael, sh, mki, mkk, f 16

however the f22 is clearly better than the pak-fa due to its 150:1 kill ratio

but dont underestimate the pak-fa a sqn is enough to take out 300 jf-17s easily