PAK Army's heavy lift and attack helicopter requirements

[fatman17]

PA is considering new attack helicopters, but either way they will not come for a 'while'. The two main options appear to be the Eurocopter Tiger and Italian-Turk T-129, one reason or another PA would not be able to induct either of them before 2015. The Tiger is expensive and the PA would probably wait out a few years to see if a more cost friendly variant becomes available. Denel had the Rooivalk Mk2 concept - although Rooivalk is dead - we'll see if Eurocopter comes up with a similar idea for Tiger. The T-129 is set for Turkish delivery from 2014, so obviously Pakistan would get it later.

Just to clarify; the Rooivalk Mk2 was designed to be cheaper and smaller than the Rooivalk.

MS
what u say is logical but it will be a very expensive buy. the most ideal upgrade/purchase would be the russian attack helicopter. just like the Mil-17 it will be cheap and rugged. i believe PA is seriously looking at this option!

 

[fatman17]

...and dont forget the chinese are developing their own attack helicopter!!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

MS
what u say is logical but it will be a very expensive buy. the most ideal upgrade/purchase would be the russian attack helicopter. just like the Mil-17 it will be cheap and rugged. i believe PA is seriously looking at this option!

sir this is not Afghani or iraqi army aviation that we are hoping to see it acquire mi-17 refitted with S-5 rockets and TOW missiles, along with flying ruski junks mi-24! after 5 years these choppers will be useless against much technically advanced IA army aviation.
Mi-17 is indeed a good medium transport helicopter, but opting it as a attack helicopter is just not worth it..

current fleet of 40 AH-1F upgraded to AH-1W along with 40+ used USM/Army AH-1 upgraded to W bringing a total fleet of 80 advanced attack helicopters
and the cost of this project will be less then $100 million!
then around 2015 PA can opt 30 4.5 gen helicopters, Tiger, T-129, or KA-50?

 

[fatman17]

sir this is not Afghani or iraqi army aviation that we are hoping to see it acquire mi-17 refitted with S-5 rockets and TOW missiles, along with flying ruski junks mi-24! after 5 years these choppers will be useless against much technically advanced IA army aviation.
Mi-17 is indeed a good medium transport helicopter, but opting it as a attack helicopter is just not worth it..

current fleet of 40 AH-1F upgraded to AH-1W along with 40+ used USM/Army AH-1 upgraded to W bringing a total fleet of 80 advanced attack helicopters
and the cost of this project will be less then $100 million!
then around 2015 PA can opt 30 4.5 gen helicopters, Tiger, T-129, or KA-50?

i was not alluding to the Hind gun-ships. the russians have another attack helicopter in production (model?) which is supposedly quite effective. having said that another batch of 40 Cobras wont hurt.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

i was not alluding to the Hind gun-ships. the russians have another attack helicopter in production (model?) which is supposedly quite effective. having said that another batch of 40 Cobras wont hurt.

It was such a head ache gettin RD-93 and acquiring KA-50 will be just a dream while IA is already evaluating KA-50. Mi-17 was just a friendly gesture.

 

[fatman17]

It was such a head ache gettin RD-93 and acquiring KA-50 will be just a dream while IA is already evaluating KA-50. Mi-17 was just a friendly gesture.

quite! but the geo-strategic situation is changing (esp after india's MMRCA order going the way of the US), then look for the longbow going to india also. russia will have to have a serious re-think.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

quite! but the geo-strategic situation is changing (esp after india's MMRCA order going the way of the US), then look for the longbow going to india also. russia will have to have a serious re-think.

whats the temper for?
but still..... KA-50 is a dream...
if US is not even willing to sell longbows to us then how the hell long trusted ally of india gonna sell us their latest choppers?

 

[sohailbutt]

whats the temper for?
but still..... KA-50 is a dream...
if US is not even willing to sell longbows to us then how the hell long trusted ally of india gonna sell us their latest choppers?

the reason why US is not willing to sell longbows to us, is that we wanted them to be donated like cobras to us, accordin to them they wuld never donate longbows when cobras can do the job in Pakistan, u see brother money talks, if Pakistan had the financial muscle everything from Aegis battle cruiser's, Patriots, n fighters like Eurofighter, rafale n F-35's wuld be up for grab by Pakistan. This is wut is happenin with India right now, they have the money so everythin from longbows, patriots, f-18's r up for sale to them

 

[Quwa]

MS
what u say is logical but it will be a very expensive buy. the most ideal upgrade/purchase would be the russian attack helicopter. just like the Mil-17 it will be cheap and rugged. i believe PA is seriously looking at this option!

It depends IMO. I know the Mi-171 is a rugged, low-cost and popular helicopter - so much the Chinese will begin producing upgraded versions soon. However with Mi-28NE, while it looks like a good system it has serious availability issues as there is no other operator except Russia. I think Venezuela may procure a fair number, but for a steady line of spare-parts in case of emergency, there need to be more operators. After the whole RD-93 confusion, I am not willing to trust the Russians.

T-129 might not be all that expensive as the Turks are getting them for about $50mn per helicopter including the heavy customization & ToT for production. If the Turkish Army decides to execute the option for 40 more T-129s (in addition to the 50 they already ordered), then the unit cost will be lower than $50mn. In fact, if the Turks succeed in exporting the system to Pakistan, Malaysia and Jordan - as hoped by their media - then expect the unit cost to be $40mn at most.

Tiger would be a very expensive option no doubt. The other two I think would be the AH-64D Longbow and AH-1Z Viper - but it depends if U.S. is willing to release those systems. However AH-1Z Viper would suffer from the same issues as the Mi-28NE...while the Longbow has operators in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt - U.S. permission is a must.

 

[fatman17]

whats the temper for?
but still..... KA-50 is a dream...
if US is not even willing to sell longbows to us then how the hell long trusted ally of india gonna sell us their latest choppers?

i think u r confused with QUIET! and QUITE!. i dont want to embarras you but pls check the english dictionary.

 

[fatman17]

It depends IMO. I know the Mi-171 is a rugged, low-cost and popular helicopter - so much the Chinese will begin producing upgraded versions soon. However with Mi-28NE, while it looks like a good system it has serious availability issues as there is no other operator except Russia. I think Venezuela may procure a fair number, but for a steady line of spare-parts in case of emergency, there need to be more operators. After the whole RD-93 confusion, I am not willing to trust the Russians.

T-129 might not be all that expensive as the Turks are getting them for about $50mn per helicopter including the heavy customization & ToT for production. If the Turkish Army decides to execute the option for 40 more T-129s (in addition to the 50 they already ordered), then the unit cost will be lower than $50mn. In fact, if the Turks succeed in exporting the system to Pakistan, Malaysia and Jordan - as hoped by their media - then expect the unit cost to be $40mn at most.

Tiger would be a very expensive option no doubt. The other two I think would be the AH-64D Longbow and AH-1Z Viper - but it depends if U.S. is willing to release those systems. However AH-1Z Viper would suffer from the same issues as the Mi-28NE...while the Longbow has operators in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt - U.S. permission is a must.

Mark Sien - r u sure of the price-tag! 50m a pop for a attack helicopter. its costlier than a F-16C blk 52!

 

[Quwa]

Mark Sien - r u sure of the price-tag! 50m a pop for a attack helicopter. its costlier than a F-16C blk 52!

The Turkish order was $3bn USD for 51 T-129s...includes customization and full ToT to Turkey to manufacture and export the helicopter. Though the unit cost will go down if the Turks manage to export a good number and the Army exercises extra options. Of all Western designs, competition would be between T-129 and AH-1Z IMO.

Turkey Chooses Mangusta A129 — Military Forum | Airliners.net

 

[fatman17]

The Turkish order was $3bn USD for 51 T-129s...includes customization and full ToT to Turkey to manufacture and export the helicopter. Though the unit cost will go down if the Turks manage to export a good number and the Army exercises extra options. Of all Western designs, competition would be between T-129 and AH-1Z IMO.

Turkey Chooses Mangusta A129 — Military Forum | Airliners.net

thanks for the link - my head is still spinning!

 

[Blackpearl]

Pakistan Army should concentrate on upgrading of presently held AH-1F Cobras. it is highly cost effective. Switching to a new technology is higly costly option, and technically not viable.
Reasons:
1. Army has Cobras for more then 20 years. Pilots and Maitenance personnel have hands on experience on these machines. So it will take less money and effort to get training on upgraded models.

2. If we go for the purchase of Tiger or Agusta 129. this is simply a ner technology. Our pilots and maintenance personnel have to be extensively trained on these machines, and this training comes at a heavy price.

3. As fas as depot level maintenance of Cobras is conscerned, Army has the capability to overhaul the engines of Cobra, and many other components. Pakistan Army has extensive depot level repair facilities at Army Aviation Base Dhamial, Rawalpindi. So we can say that, an extensive infrastructure for deep level maintenance exist in Pakistan. I aslo add here that, many compnents of Cobra like Engine, Transmissioin, gearboxes are similar to UH-1H,k which Pakistan also have. We have recieved Huey IIs a couple of years back. Pilots and support personnel can have cross training on both the helicopters and we have a big pool of trained manpower for both the helicopters.

4. Pakistan Army Cobras are already pressed in was against terror. if we get new machines, newe technology, i think it takes 1-2 years of extensive training, before, aircarft is put into active action/combat. so with new machines, i dont think we have the patience to wait for our flyboys to be fully conversent with Tigers/Augustas, before they are put in action.

 

[JK!]

What about heavy and medium lift utility helos?