PAK Army's heavy lift and attack helicopter requirements

[sodocpkgj]

whats the number of C-130s in pak military???????

its 12 rite??/

 

[pkpatriotic]

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cobraupgradenewskd2.jpg

Its really cool!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cobraupgradenewskd2.jpg

very good!please tell me is this a cover of a book or its just a poster? i would love to get my hands on this book//

 

[Myth_buster_1]

speedy cobra!

 

[kashifpso]

AS WE KNOW THAT CHINA IS ASSEMBLING MI-17s BUT ALSO I READ IN WIKIPEDIA THAT CHINA IS ALSO ASSEMBLING FRENCH SUPER FRELON HEAVY LIFT HELICOPTER. THESE HELICOPTERS CAN BE PURCHASED FROM CHINA TO FIL THE GAP OF HEAVY LIFT CAPABILITY.

 

[Imran Khan]

whats the number of C-130s in pak military???????

its 12 rite??/

i think we have 24 c-130s

 

[Blackpearl]

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cobraupgradenewskd2.jpg

This brochure is really strange. As no company who is going to carry out this modification is shown on tye cover.

Anyway, let me tell you gentlemen, The type of modernisation/modification which is advertised on this cover only shows that
It is an upgrade of aircraft Nav/situational awareness system, in the cockpit only. Pilot and gunner will be looking over more advanced / digital displays, then conventional analogue dispalys.

Please note, this is only a part of avionics, used in Z model which will be embeded in F model. This fact is actually avertised on the cover also, that AH-1Z technology, featuring mission computer GEN II, will be applied to F models. The cover also features two discrete components / LRUs (Line Replcement Units). which will be added to F models. and that is all. It is not complete aircraft upgrade. It does not mean that after this Cockpit upgrade, F model will be converted to W/Z model. You can see the difference between the two in the cover feature. The major difference still remains the same ---> twin engines, Hellfires, 4 bladed main and tail rotors.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

This brochure is really strange. As no company who is going to carry out this modification is shown on tye cover.

Anyway, let me tell you gentlemen, The type of modernisation/modification which is advertised on this cover only shows that
It is an upgrade of aircraft Nav/situational awareness system, in the cockpit only. Pilot and gunner will be looking over more advanced / digital displays, then conventional analogue dispalys.

Please note, this is only a part of avionics, used in Z model which will be embeded in F model. This fact is actually avertised on the cover also, that AH-1Z technology, featuring mission computer GEN II, will be applied to F models. The cover also features two discrete components / LRUs (Line Replcement Units). which will be added to F models. and that is all. It is not complete aircraft upgrade. It does not mean that after this Cockpit upgrade, F model will be converted to W/Z model. You can see the difference between the two in the cover feature. The major difference still remains the same ---> twin engines, Hellfires, 4 bladed main and tail rotors.

abbayy yaar!! why dont you get it..
Just like AH-1F/E/G etc was redesigned into AH-1W ---->is also being rebuilt and redesigned into the AH-1Z.

 

[Quwa]

This brochure is really strange. As no company who is going to carry out this modification is shown on tye cover.

Anyway, let me tell you gentlemen, The type of modernisation/modification which is advertised on this cover only shows that
It is an upgrade of aircraft Nav/situational awareness system, in the cockpit only. Pilot and gunner will be looking over more advanced / digital displays, then conventional analogue dispalys.

Please note, this is only a part of avionics, used in Z model which will be embeded in F model. This fact is actually avertised on the cover also, that AH-1Z technology, featuring mission computer GEN II, will be applied to F models. The cover also features two discrete components / LRUs (Line Replcement Units). which will be added to F models. and that is all. It is not complete aircraft upgrade. It does not mean that after this Cockpit upgrade, F model will be converted to W/Z model. You can see the difference between the two in the cover feature. The major difference still remains the same ---> twin engines, Hellfires, 4 bladed main and tail rotors.

That was only one of several posters, the person who originally took them may have the rest. Though airframe changes are not possible, AH-1Z avionics, ECM/EW & weapon-systems can be applied to the AH-1F.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

That was only one of several posters, the person who originally took them may have the rest. Though airframe changes are not possible, AH-1Z avionics, ECM/EW & weapon-systems can be applied to the AH-1F.

PA AH-1 modernization requirements are..
AH-1Z avionics, ECM/EW & Armaments like hell fire etc as you have mentioned. the AH-1F airframe must be expanded in order to integrate these systems, it can be noticed in USM AH-1 airframes. this will add up to at least 150-200 kg including armaments and thus double engine must be needed to overcome extended weight.

 

[fatman17]

i think we have 24 c-130s

originally we had ~12 C-130s including 1 - L101 (civilian version). then there was a freak accident at chaklala AB where a out-of-control C-130 rammed into 3 parked C-130s. all 4 are believed to be written off (?) leaving a balance of 8. after 9/11 the USA allowed the purchase of 6 ex-australian C-130s bringing the total to 14. 1 chilian C-130 was purchased for spares.

additionally 4 C-295s have been purchased from indonesia for light transport. it includes 1 VIP flight.

 

[Blackpearl]

originally we had ~12 C-130s including 1 - L101 (civilian version). then there was a freak accident at chaklala AB where a out-of-control C-130 rammed into 3 parked C-130s. all 4 are believed to be written off (?) leaving a balance of 8. after 9/11 the USA allowed the purchase of 6 ex-australian C-130s bringing the total to 14. 1 chilian C-130 was purchased for spares.

additionally 4 C-295s have been purchased from indonesia for light transport. it includes 1 VIP flight.

It was Probably Aug 1998, when one c-130 while undergoing taxi test, rammed into another fully fuel laden C-130, due to wheel brake failure. Both the C-130 were completely destroyed. It is pointed here that in this incident only 2 C-130 were destroyed not 4.

Yes a similar accident occured in probably 1979 or 1980, when again 2 C-130 Collided with one another at Chaklala AFB.

 

[Blackpearl]

PA AH-1 modernization requirements are..
AH-1Z avionics, ECM/EW & Armaments like hell fire etc as you have mentioned. the AH-1F airframe must be expanded in order to integrate these systems, it can be noticed in USM AH-1 airframes. this will add up to at least 150-200 kg including armaments and thus double engine must be needed to overcome extended weight.

Agreed
But i still have some reservations.
The present F models Pak Army has, were built in early 80s. Even the recently received F models are actually refurbished, as they were originally built in , again early 80s. Now after a life span of more then 25 years, Pak Army is planning to upgrade its weaponry and avionics suite, regardless that the original airfarme is more then 25 years old.
Sir, you must be knowing about the definite fatigue life, aircarft structures have. Mostly after active service of 25-30 years, airframes are retired from service as they have accumulated enough fatigue in their structures that a catestrophic failure may occur any time, so aircraft are simply retired from service. This may not be true for civil aviation as they always fly familiar flight patterns. Yet military aircraft are always pushed to limits and subjected to high combat/G loads and stresses in the heat of battle.

Pak F models have been actively engeged in Anti terror operations, in last 5 years so we can say that in their, 25 years life, last 5 years, they were pushed to limits.

My point is , is it necessary to give an avionics and weapon upgrade to an already aging airframe. You said that, weight will be added by 150- 200 kg. This means that adding extra stress to already stressed structure. Then if twin engines are to be mounted, it needs modification in structures. For a fleet of 40, we need extar 40 engines also (to make it twin engine version).

The MLU type upgrade of F-16, must be including extensive overhauling and strengthening of F-16 structure, but----> after MLU, F-16 still remains single engine fighter. The overhauing of the structure is to ensure that f-16 will carry extar weight of avionics, which is added, and new weapons. My idea is that, a helicopter military engine (brand new) from USA, cost 1-1.5 million dollars. That really confusing.


Why dont Pakistan go for purchase of brand new attack helicopters

Still, Pak Army must be planning prudently to upgrade its attack helicopter fleet.

 

[Quwa]

PA is considering new attack helicopters, but either way they will not come for a 'while'. The two main options appear to be the Eurocopter Tiger and Italian-Turk T-129, one reason or another PA would not be able to induct either of them before 2015. The Tiger is expensive and the PA would probably wait out a few years to see if a more cost friendly variant becomes available. Denel had the Rooivalk Mk2 concept - although Rooivalk is dead - we'll see if Eurocopter comes up with a similar idea for Tiger. The T-129 is set for Turkish delivery from 2014, so obviously Pakistan would get it later.

Just to clarify; the Rooivalk Mk2 was designed to be cheaper and smaller than the Rooivalk.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Agreed
But i still have some reservations.
The present F models Pak Army has, were built in early 80s. Even the recently received F models are actually refurbished, as they were originally built in , again early 80s. Now after a life span of more then 25 years, Pak Army is planning to upgrade its weaponry and avionics suite, regardless that the original airfarme is more then 25 years old.
Sir, you must be knowing about the definite fatigue life, aircarft structures have. Mostly after active service of 25-30 years, airframes are retired from service as they have accumulated enough fatigue in their structures that a catestrophic failure may occur any time, so aircraft are simply retired from service. This may not be true for civil aviation as they always fly familiar flight patterns. Yet military aircraft are always pushed to limits and subjected to high combat/G loads and stresses in the heat of battle.

Pak F models have been actively engeged in Anti terror operations, in last 5 years so we can say that in their, 25 years life, last 5 years, they were pushed to limits.

My point is , is it necessary to give an avionics and weapon upgrade to an already aging airframe. You said that, weight will be added by 150- 200 kg. This means that adding extra stress to already stressed structure. Then if twin engines are to be mounted, it needs modification in structures. For a fleet of 40, we need extar 40 engines also (to make it twin engine version).

The MLU type upgrade of F-16, must be including extensive overhauling and strengthening of F-16 structure, but----> after MLU, F-16 still remains single engine fighter. The overhauing of the structure is to ensure that f-16 will carry extar weight of avionics, which is added, and new weapons. My idea is that, a helicopter military engine (brand new) from USA, cost 1-1.5 million dollars. That really confusing.


Why dont Pakistan go for purchase of brand new attack helicopters

Still, Pak Army must be planning prudently to upgrade its attack helicopter fleet.

USM has been using its AH-1T airframe for about 35 years and still plans to use it for another 20+ years! These airframes have been given structure updates along with avionics AH-1T-->W--->Z . Thats why they have able to cope multiple wars in less then a decade as a front line choppers. ANd they have been pulling some serious high stress Gs on twin engine choppers! our single engine does not exort as much stress as the USMs' does!
Considering how precious every single penny is for GoP and PA will never throw it in junk yard before sucking the last drop of juice out of it! PA cobras' capability can be enhanced to the same standard as AH-1W/Z with just additional cost of less then $10 million, we get a copra that is as good as $20 million AH-64 A/B with half of the cost while comparable to Longbow! After a decade our 40+ cobra fleet will be just flying bricks against technically advanced IA army! then what do we have? just 30 advanced helis while the indians are already looking for over 150plus Longbows ka-50 and tiger!
so thats why we need these babies for long time beyond 2030!