PAK Army's heavy lift and attack helicopter requirements

[sohailbutt]

We have 26 Bell 412EP for light transport n i think but im not sure we also have Mi-17 Medium lift helicopters, wut PAK army doesnot have is heavy lift helicopters, r there any plans to aquire these type of heavy lift heli's for Pakistan Army? Can NH-90 n UH-60M Blackhawk fulfill these roles?

Also, i know we have 30 Cobras, to serve the volatile region of Wazirastan, to take out the bad guys but i have a feelin that these cobras number will not be sufficiant in war time, i mean to say we need to procure atleast a few more attack heli's of a different category, i think possible candidates should be Eurocopter Tiger, South African AH-2 Rooivalk and the famous n proven Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow. guys i really think if we get these new attack heli's from our own money n not from aid as was the case with our Block 52's, then US will surely sell us Apache D's, but they will not give us these beasts in aid no not at all. Apache D equipped with Hell fire missiles will be very deadly against rival tanks and other vehicles in the battle field.

 

[fatman17]

in the early 70's one example of Mil-26(?) heavy lift helicopter was sent by USSR for test purposes but was rejected by the PA.
newer heavy lift helicopters are very expensive such as the NH-90 etc. to have a effective heavy lift capability, large numbers are required (30+). so it all depends on the resources available. already there are reports that the armed forces have over-spent their share of the defence budget and therefore the 1st reaction was cancellation of the 2nd batch of F-16 blk 52's.
PA seems to be happy with the performance of the Mil-17I's and would like to increase their numbers. the Puma fleet is getting old and more than likely be replaced by additional Mil-17Is (especially since china has started the assembly/production of the same).

 

[Blackpearl]

r there any plans to aquire these type of heavy lift heli's for Pakistan Army? Can NH-90 n UH-60M Blackhawk fulfill these roles?

.......... i mean to say we need to procure atleast a few more attack heli's of a different category, i think possible candidates should be Eurocopter Tiger, South African AH-2 Rooivalk and the famous n proven Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow. guys i really think if we get these new attack heli's from our own money n not from aid as was the case with our Block 52's, then US will surely sell us Apache D's, but they will not give us these beasts in aid no not at all. Apache D equipped with Hell fire missiles will be very deadly against rival tanks and other vehicles in the battle field.

A highly wishful thinking, by the way Sir,
you are making these sincere suggestions, as somebody is walking through a grocerry store, and purchasing edibles.

USA has recently provided Refurbished Cobra helicopters, so AH-64D are out.Although Pakistan wanted these Appaches, yet who can go against USA thinkings.

A brand new Tiger helicopter costs 50 Million dollars. the price will go high when other costs like training of pilots/technicians, purchase of customer required spares, ground support spares is included.

Pakistan has adequate fleet of attack and medium lift helicopters. Heavy lift helicopoters are required by Armies involved in inter-theater operations like USA, UK etc. MI-17s are enough for our requirements.

 

[Capt JB]

Hi,

I am Capt JB, French Helicopter pilot and rotary wing historian. You make a good point, but in the modern equipment you will not find any helicopter capable to carry 30 fully equipped infantry men, but less than 20, or around 20. This is the size for infantry squad.
Effectively the Mil 26 provide heavy transport capabilities but it is helpless for fast moving troops and assault unless the battlefield is secured - I mean without shoulder AA equipment, otherwise it is the best target in the world...
The mil equipment equation is unfortunately more depending on geopolitic than real needs of your country, and certainly USA will apply some arm twisting as they did recently to convince some South american governments to buy Bell instead of HAL AHL Dhruv helicopter.

with regards

We have 26 Bell 412EP for light transport n i think but im not sure we also have Mi-17 Medium lift helicopters, wut PAK army doesnot have is heavy lift helicopters, r there any plans to aquire these type of heavy lift heli's for Pakistan Army? Can NH-90 n UH-60M Blackhawk fulfill these roles?

Also, i know we have 30 Cobras, to serve the volatile region of Wazirastan, to take out the bad guys but i have a feelin that these cobras number will not be sufficiant in war time, i mean to say we need to procure atleast a few more attack heli's of a different category, i think possible candidates should be Eurocopter Tiger, South African AH-2 Rooivalk and the famous n proven Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow. guys i really think if we get these new attack heli's from our own money n not from aid as was the case with our Block 52's, then US will surely sell us Apache D's, but they will not give us these beasts in aid no not at all. Apache D equipped with Hell fire missiles will be very deadly against rival tanks and other vehicles in the battle field.

 

[Neo]

Welcome aboard Captain JB.
Please post a little intro in the members intro section:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-introduction/

Thanks
Neo

 

[fatman17]

Hi,

I am Capt JB, French Helicopter pilot and rotary wing historian. You make a good point, but in the modern equipment you will not find any helicopter capable to carry 30 fully equipped infantry men, but less than 20, or around 20. This is the size for infantry squad.
Effectively the Mil 26 provide heavy transport capabilities but it is helpless for fast moving troops and assault unless the battlefield is secured - I mean without shoulder AA equipment, otherwise it is the best target in the world...
The mil equipment equation is unfortunately more depending on geopolitic than real needs of your country, and certainly USA will apply some arm twisting as they did recently to convince some South american governments to buy Bell instead of HAL AHL Dhruv helicopter.

with regards

wellcome captain JB
i disagree with your Mil assessment - US is reluctant to sell the chinook and blackhawks to Pakistan for un-known reasons. our reasoning is the cost/unit.
pakistan has a fairly large fleet of Mil-8s and 17s and has also started to re-furbish some of the older Mil-8s (work has started at multan)

 

[Myth_buster_1]

my wish list for PA helis.

Attack helis
- current fleet of 30 + 40 more purchased or donated Ah-1F upgraded to W super cobra standard, which will add additional 25-30 years! Z is unlikely because its simply too advance upgrade to be handed over to PAkistan by USA.

-and 30 T-129 to full fill advanced Heli requirements..

Transport helis

- and alots of mi-17s!!!!!!!!!

 

[Blackpearl]

Pakistan Army has F models of Cobra helicopters. The F model is last in series of production of AH-1 series Huey Cobras, used by US Army and transferred to National Gaurds in 90s. US army did not carry out any further improvement/modification to F models, as they were entirely switching to Appaches.

The W models is the derivetive of AH-1J, twin engine, sea cobra. J models were used by US Marines corps. Due to copters flying over sea, Marines preferred to have twin engines, in cobras, where as their Army counterparts stick to originally concieved single engine models. Simply put, F models cannot be upgraded to W models.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Pakistan Army has F models of Cobra helicopters. The F model is last in series of production of AH-1 series Huey Cobras, used by US Army and transferred to National Gaurds in 90s. US army did not carry out any further improvement/modification to F models, as they were entirely switching to Appaches.

The W models is the derivetive of AH-1J, twin engine, sea cobra. J models were used by US Marines corps. Due to copters flying over sea, Marines preferred to have twin engines, in cobras, where as their Army counterparts stick to originally concieved single engine models. Simply put, F models cannot be upgraded to W models.

i have to disagree with you
Current AH-1W are comprised of a mixture of new produced AH-1Ws and upgraded AH-1Ts remanufactured into the AH-1W aircraft.
Ah-1T was a Marine-ordered version of Ah-1 used by the army.

 

[Owais]

or army cannot afford AH64D or eurocopter tiger but I think that CH-47 Chinook is more suited for heavy lift role as many countries are its operator, so we can get used CH-47 at low price.
also, AH-1F is a nice chopper and we need to increase its number from 38 to 60.

 

[Always Neutral]

The US would be happy to give Chinooks to PAF for movement of troops.

Regards

 

[Blackpearl]

i have to disagree with you
Current AH-1W are comprised of a mixture of new produced AH-1Ws and upgraded AH-1Ts remanufactured into the AH-1W aircraft.
Ah-1T was a Marine-ordered version of Ah-1 used by the army.

F models cannot be upgraded to W models, Confirmed,
You can check it from Bell company guys.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

F models cannot be upgraded to W models, Confirmed,
You can check it from Bell company guys.

Army procured dozens of excess AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters since 2002; at least 30 have been brought into service to supplement the serving 18. The army reportedly ordered or has plans to add 20 more usable AH-1s and upgrade its entire fleet with AH-1Z King Cobra avionics and new weapon systems such as the TOW-2 and Hellfire missiles.

i dont know which bell site you visited or you are just assuming? hell.. even defence.pk talks about upgrade of AH-1F to W or Z..
AH-1W is just like giving F-16 block 15 MLU to 52 standard..
but i personally dought Zulu upgrade for PA cobras as they were planning to upgrade it with Turkey but Turkey pulled off the programe at the last moment.

 

[Blackpearl]

Well, regarding upgrades, i read in Janes' Book (All the world aircraft 2004/05.
F model is the descendant of AH-1G --> AH-1S --> AH-1P --> AH-1E and finally AH-1F, which Pakistan has.

W model started as AH-1J --> AH-1T -->AH-1W and finally AH-1Z.
The basic difference remains the same, single engine and twin engine.
Anyway, lets not be contencious.

F models are suited to fire TOW only. US Army never tested installing Hellfires on F. The reason may be that, they were already withdrawing them from service, in place of Appaches. W models are fitted with Hellfires.

 

[Quwa]

Well, regarding upgrades, i read in Janes' Book (All the world aircraft 2004/05.
F model is the descendant of AH-1G --> AH-1S --> AH-1P --> AH-1E and finally AH-1F, which Pakistan has.

W model started as AH-1J --> AH-1T -->AH-1W and finally AH-1Z.
The basic difference remains the same, single engine and twin engine.
Anyway, lets not be contencious.

F models are suited to fire TOW only. US Army never tested installing Hellfires on F. The reason may be that, they were already withdrawing them from service, in place of Appaches. W models are fitted with Hellfires.

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cobraupgradenewskd2.jpg