Pak Army's Contribution in Socio-Economic Development of Balochistan

[Xeric]

@Argus Panoptes, took me a while to dig it up, but the effort's worth it if it helps you understand the obvious:

(you can follow the thread for more details)

Haha...i think you area true victim of your own thoughts.

It was you who said:

So then why the rhetorics?

It's the Constitutional authority by virtue it undertake such initiatives.

The Army has a fully functional Engineering department for its military use, that is also capable of undertaking civilian tasks. It is the responsibility of the Army to assist its civilian counterparts whenever they are stuck. No private or govt run organization in Pakistan has the manpower or the engineering equipment and qualified Engineers more in numbers than the Army.

What's your guess, how many engineers does an engineering firm has at one time inside Pakistan? Now compare this with a single Engineers Unit that alone have more than 15 Civil Engineers.

Compare it with Electrical and Mechanical (EME) Battalion that alone has more than 15 Electical Engineers.

Compare it with a Signal Battalion that alone has 5-7 Telecom engineers, 5-7 Software Engineers and 5 -7 IT experts at any one time.

Compare this with an Artillery Regiment which alone has 2-3 MSc Metallurgy at any point of time.

Though all of these experts are required to any Army, but not all are being utilized during peace.So if the Constitution tells you to assist the civilians and if we do so, would that be 'bad'??

What's wrong in if the govt is short on hands and asks military engineers to perform engineering tasks? This way, atleast the govt dont have to pay extra to engineering forms.Now ofcourse that does not mean that every engineering wok inside Pakistan is undertaken by military engineers, but when everyone refuses to go construct a bridge in Swat or a school there, it is the military that has to do it. Savvy?

Really not that hard to understand, Cheng.

Or may be you are confused about the role of Army in aid of civil power as per our Constitution, why dont you go check it out?



Cheng, you know i am guud at providing specifics as opposed to you who ask vague questions.

Here:

When Government of Balochistan (the mighty CM himself) wrote to Commander Southern Command, Quetta asking, rather ordering him to assist his Commissioners, Deputy Commissioners and Mines and Minerals Department of Balochistan in the Chamalang Coal Mines Projects, first by clearing the area from land mines, than by providing security to the labors and locals from Khair Bhakhash Marri and than ofcourse as Army has a credibility, he also asked the Army to resolve the dispute between Lunni and Marri Tribes, as they just wont listen to the civilian bureaucracy, as per the Constitution of Pakistan that you seem so unaware of, the GoB was supposed to pay for the fuel, wear and tear of military equipment and axillary expenditures being done by the military during the development process through a thing known as IS expenditure.

But guess what, just as we were in mid way, the mighty civilians showed their inability to recoup the expenditure done by the military. A point came where the CM felt sorry and his ilks decided to wind up the project, thereby closing the LARGEST COALMINES IN SOUTH ASIA which had already remained closed for the past 50 years.

Guess what Army said, we will do it from our side and you can recoup us latter when the project is up. The MoI, MoI etc got into work, President and the PM sanctioned the move and the project succeeded.

The result: 50000 Balochistanis got job, a Jungle was lit up through electricity, those who were hurling stones at military and police became milioners overnight, peace prevailed, 500 plus Pakistani citizens who were killed as a result of the dispute between Lunni (Pathans) and Balochis (Marris) were each paid 0.5 million as compsation, even though they have killed each other, not by outsiders, 5000 Balochi and Pathan students started receiving FREE education - this was Army's idea alone, we made sure that this condition is added in the contract, each year 10-15 students go to colleges like NUST out of these 5K.

Now how did the Army managed funds, well the GOC banned use of all military vehicles even for official purposes, the fuel thus saved was utilized for the project, stationary fund was cut to half, the remainder went to the project, Army rations were utilized to feed the labors who were to be fed by the govt at the beginning, leave of soldiers was curtailed so that they can work extra for the project and so on and so forth.

Now, those Marris and Lunnis dont stand with Brahamdad Bugti, they wear Pakistani flags everytime. This was supposed to be done by the govt, and you so how did it went, may be Army should also sleep so that all Pakistanis can migrate and run to the US like yourself!!


Either you are not listening or you dont have common sense. i said "Gave away a huge part of Defence Budget".

It's like WAPDA or Raillways or PIA giving away their own budget which they require to function!!

The Army is not an NGO which can donate and then recoup from charity.

Mobilink or XYZ company donating money to the effectees is a different thing than a govt organization giving away its yearly budget! Are you really so dumb or you just pretend to be one?

And this money was in addition to pays that we donated and the millions of tonnes of charity that the Army had collected from Pakistanis, and then handed over to the effectees.

The result, well we were left with no funds for training that year.

The solution:
-We kept quite (you dont find it in any newspaper),

-Called a bluff so that the evil yindoos (Indians please: not to be taken literally) dont come to know that a lot many soldiers and officers (new entrants are left untrained),

- And then the training we did, we (the trained fauj) worked thrice the amount as we would normally, because it was OK to spend more time and work over time (like one instructor who would take 200 classes a year had to take 600 this time), so that no one is left untrained. And guess what, unlike in the civilian sector we dont get paid any 'Over-time'



No you dont!

P.S On a personal note, you by any chance related to @VCheng or drinking off his glass lately

 

[Argus Panoptes]

@Argus Panoptes, took me a while to dig it up, but the effort's worth it if it helps you understand the obvious:

(you can follow the thread for more details)





P.S On a personal note, you by any chance related to @VCheng or drinking off his glass lately

@Xeric Sir, Thank you for that great reply which answers my questions very well.

And no, I am not V-Cheng or any other Ching-Chong-Cheng, but my questions arose from discussions with many people here which were surprisingly unified in their criticism of the Army and its role in our politics, specially when compared to the roles played by the Army in most other nuclear powers. (If you don't know already Sir, I am studying Social Science.)

One more question, if I may: If the administration is asking the Army to do all these things, is the Army legally bound to do everything it is asked to do, or only the legal things? What if a CM pr the PM writes to the GHQ and asks it for support in an illegal act? Must the Army agree, or does it pick and choose? Who and How?

The consequences of the Army being involved in actions that are beyond its constitutionally mandated role are very evident from our history. It seems to me that from your example above, being asked to clear the area from land mines, and providing security to the labors and locals is okay, but playing political peacemaker between warring tribes is not.

The Army should know better what it should and should not be involved in, and the same for the civil government too.

 

[Xeric]

@Xeric Sir, Thank you for that great reply which answers my questions very well.

And no, I am not V-Cheng or any other Ching-Chong-Cheng, but my questions arose from discussions with many people here which were surprisingly unified in their criticism of the Army and its role in our politics, specially when compared to the roles played by the Army in most other nuclear powers. (If you don't know already Sir, I am studying Social Science.)

One more question, if I may: If the administration is asking the Army to do all these things, is the Army legally bound to do everything it is asked to do, or only the legal things? What if a CM pr the PM writes to the GHQ and asks it for support in an illegal act? Must the Army agree, or does it pick and choose? Who and How?

The consequences of the Army being involved in actions that are beyond its constitutionally mandated role are very evident from our history. It seems to me that from your example above, being asked to clear the area from land mines, and providing security to the labors and locals is okay, but playing political peacemaker between warring tribes is not.

The Army should know better what it should and should not be involved in, and the same for the civil government too.

i am unable to find the clause for our own Constitutions (article 245 i supposed), however here's what the indian Constituion says:

CHAPTER VII



DUTIES IN AID OF THE CIVIL POWER


1. Introduction. —The primary role of the regular Army is to defend the country against external aggression and troops are trained and equipped for such a task. The assistance of the armed forces (military, naval and air forces) (Cr. P.C.,1973 s. 132(3)) is however, sought by the civil government for various internal duties, both in peace and in war. The types of aid so sought by the civil government are as under: —

(a) maintenance of law and order;

(b) maintenance of essential services;

(c) assistance during natural and other calamities; and

(d)other types of assistance, including assistance in development projects......

DUTIES IN AID OF THE CIVIL POWER

So, whereas in its restricted form 'In Aid of Civ Power' would mean to assist the civilians in handling law n order issues, but at the same time it also covers auxiliary items, which despite the efforts of people here who 'were surprisingly unified in their criticism of the Army and its role in our politics', does not constitute any ulta vire actions.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

i am unable to find the clause for our own Constitutions (article 245 i supposed), however here's what the indian Constituion says:

CHAPTER VII
...................

So, whereas in its restricted form 'In Aid of Civ Power' would mean to assist the civilians in handling law n order issues, but at the same time it also covers auxiliary items, which despite the efforts of people here who 'were surprisingly unified in their criticism of the Army and its role in our politics', does not constitute any ulta vire actions.

Here is Article 245 of our Constitution Sir:

245 Functions of Armed Forces.

(1) The Armed Forces shall, under the directions of the Federal Government, defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war, and, subject to law, act in aid of civil power when called upon to do so.

(2) The validity of any direction issued by the Federal Government under clause (1) shall not be called in question in any court.

(3) A High Court shall not exercise any jurisdiction under Article 199 in relation to any area in which the Armed Forces of Pakistan are, for the time being, acting in aid of civil power in pursuance of Article 245:
Provided that this clause shall not be deemed to affect the jurisdiction of the High Court in respect of any proceeding pending immediately before the day on which the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power.

(4) Any proceeding in relation to an area referred to in clause (3) instituted on or after the day the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power and pending in any High Court shall remain suspended for the period during which the Armed Forces are so acting.


So the role of our Armed Forces is clearly to defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war under the directions of the Federal Government, and, subject to law, to act in aid of civil power when called upon to do so.

Please note the phrase "subject to law". The Army cannot act in aid of civil power in violation of law, beyond its mandate. Where does playing peacemaker between tribes fit in these roles?



=================

The 7th Amendment includes the following change:

4.
Amendment of Article 245 of the Constitution.
In the Constitution Article 245 shall be renumbered as clause (1), of that Article and, after clause (1) renumbered as aforesaid, the following new clauses shall be added, namely;--

"(2) The validity of any direction issued by the Federal Government under clause (1) shall not be called in question in any Court.
(3) A High Court shall not exercise any jurisdiction under Article 199 in relation to any area in which the Armed Forces of Pakistan are, for the time being , acting in aid of civil power in pursuance of Article 245:

Provided that this clause shall not be deemed to affect the jurisdiction of the High Court in respect of any proceeding pending immediately before the day on which the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power.

(4) Any proceeding in relation to an area referred to in clause (3), instituted on or after the day the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power and pending in any High Court shall remain suspended for the period during which the Armed Forces are so acting."

 

[Xeric]

Here is Article 245 of our Constitution Sir:

245 Functions of Armed Forces.

(1) The Armed Forces shall, under the directions of the Federal Government, defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war, and, subject to law, act in aid of civil power when called upon to do so.

(2) The validity of any direction issued by the Federal Government under clause (1) shall not be called in question in any court.

(3) A High Court shall not exercise any jurisdiction under Article 199 in relation to any area in which the Armed Forces of Pakistan are, for the time being, acting in aid of civil power in pursuance of Article 245:
Provided that this clause shall not be deemed to affect the jurisdiction of the High Court in respect of any proceeding pending immediately before the day on which the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power.

(4) Any proceeding in relation to an area referred to in clause (3) instituted on or after the day the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power and pending in any High Court shall remain suspended for the period during which the Armed Forces are so acting.


So the role of our Armed Forces is clearly to defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war under the directions of the Federal Government, and, subject to law, to act in aid of civil power when called upon to do so.

Please note the phrase "subject to law". The Army cannot act in aid of civil power in violation of law, beyond its mandate. Where does playing peacemaker between tribes fit in these roles?

Just in time, i too got a copy, anywaz, it seems that you are unable to understand what article 245 actually says.

Where does it specify the mandate? How can you say that brokering a peace deal among two tribes is 'illegal'? Ok, it should have been done by the civilians, but then i dont find you questioning the same requisition during floods, earthquakes and PTCL strikes when the same issue should also had been handled by the civilians. What's your measure to term this one as beyond mandate?

How are you quantifying peacemaking between tribes as unlawful (especially when the 'define area' falls under the jurisdiction of Levies i.e B Area).

Also, i think you have missed the background here, Chamalang Project failed because the civilian 'peacemakers' were unable to broker a peace deal between the tribes since the past 50 years. i suggest you do a little search on PDF and learn about the projects managed by the Army in Balochistan.


You probably are unaware of the dynamics of Pakistan, or else the Fauj guarding the elections was also illegal as it primarily was the responsibility of ECP and the bureaucracy who are paid to do this job. A quick example; during elections a relative of mine narrated me a joke. He said, a village school which happened to be a polling station was surrounded by the workers of a particular political party with all those tents, banners, benches and supporters, which indeed was prohibited during these elections. However, when the SHO of the area came to visit the polling station, none i repeat none of the workers even bothered to get up from their seats, however when a QRF ex Army was passing by while it patrolled the area, the entire setup (tents, banners etc) were upstuck even before the QRF managed to reach the place, this i talk of mainland Punjab where atleast we see some rule of law. Here we are talking about Balochistan, half of which is still ungoverned.

i suggest, you question those who rule you politically and administratively, and not the ones who get the job done.

 

[Xeric]

=================

The 7th Amendment includes the following change:

4.
Amendment of Article 245 of the Constitution.
In the Constitution Article 245 shall be renumbered as clause (1), of that Article and, after clause (1) renumbered as aforesaid, the following new clauses shall be added, namely;--

"(2) The validity of any direction issued by the Federal Government under clause (1) shall not be called in question in any Court.
(3) A High Court shall not exercise any jurisdiction under Article 199 in relation to any area in which the Armed Forces of Pakistan are, for the time being , acting in aid of civil power in pursuance of Article 245:

Provided that this clause shall not be deemed to affect the jurisdiction of the High Court in respect of any proceeding pending immediately before the day on which the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power.

(4) Any proceeding in relation to an area referred to in clause (3), instituted on or after the day the Armed Forces start acting in aid of civil power and pending in any High Court shall remain suspended for the period during which the Armed Forces are so acting."

Your 'mandate' just went to take a nap with this amendment.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

...............
Where does it specify the mandate? How can you say that brokering a peace deal among two tribes is 'illegal'? Ok, it should have been done by the civilians, but then i dont find you questioning the same requisition during floods, earthquakes and PTCL strikes when the same issue should also had been handled by the civilians. What's your measure to term this one as beyond mandate?.........................

i suggest, you question those who rule you politically and administratively, and not the ones who get the job done.

I read the mandate as being described in 245(1), and anything not expressly mentioned here as being beyond the constitutional mandate. Yes, I do question the miserable and multiple failures of our rulers, both political and administrative, but that does not mean that the Army should get a free pass since it "gets the job done".

Please do not take my questions as an attack on the Army. I fully understand that it is a crucial part of our country, but we as a whole will be better served if all the components of our country learn to work together and within the legal ambit as defined by the Constitution. Our history is full of examples where many organs of State have taken it upon themselves to exceed or misuse their authority and it has come back to haunt us for decades.

It is time for all of those practices to stop, and there are some indications that it is beginning to happen. That is an encouraging trend indeed, and I hope that the Army as well as all other organs of the State continue to participate in this process.

That is all, Sir.

 

[Xeric]

Here's another nuclear power whose armed forces enjoys going beyond the 'mandate':

Military Aid to the Civil Authorities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And BTW, as the civilian bureaucracy, Dept of Mines and Minerals and the Govt of Balochistan was fully involved alongwith with the Army in kick starting the projects (all the funds were being controlled by them, all decisions were being made by the civilians, control of assets was in the hands of the govt, employment of manpower though being coordinated by the Army but was being directed by GoB, hiring/firing, master planning etc was in the hands of the govt) and only the dirty work and thankless job like gathering the tribes, listening to their issues including the blame game and lies, fake documentation etc was being dealt by the Army.

Example;

Escorting NADRA's mobile workshops (though it was Army's idea to register the locals) was Army's job, but we made sure that someone from the DMG is their to execute the task.

So, all the legal bindings were being met and the per-requsites of Aiding the Civilians were being ensured.

 

[Xeric]

I read the mandate as being described in 245(1),

So, then what;s the doubt?

i think you should also read the explanation of article 245 by some renowned lawmaker. It;s available over the internet, i am sure you'll find one.

Article 245 spells out the 'role' of the Armed forces, 1( primary being against external threats,2) second by assisting the civilians whenever called upon. There are no ifs or buts. Han, may be one day when a CM shall order us to bring down a governor's house, we'll make sure not to abide.

and anything not expressly mentioned here as being beyond the constitutional mandate.

Like i said, please get hold of some guud 'tasreeh' of the Constitution. Ours is not as elaborate as indians or others.

If we go by your definition, there is "nothing" expressly mention in that article that allows us to even assist the civilians during natural calamities. Let;s see when would you question us doing that too?

Yes, I do question the miserable and multiple failures of our rulers, both political and administrative,

i dont see that happening.

but that does not mean that the Army should get a free pass since it "gets the job done".

Now that's more like going on a tangent. No ones getting a free pass here, its simple; You ask, We deliver. Remember, CM Balochistan order it, as opposed to we doing it as per our own initiative, make out the difference,m its not that subtle.

Please do not take my questions as an attack on the Army.

Right, instead of questioning the failure of the civilians to re-start Chamalang since the past 50 years, you question the one institution that made it possible, and then you dare play innocent? Kahin aap roti ko chochi tu nh boltay?

I fully understand that it is a crucial part of our country, but we as a whole will be better served if all the components of our country learn to work together and within the legal ambit as defined by the Constitution.

Yep, been there, done that. Next?

Our history is full of examples where many organs of State have taken it upon themselves to exceed or misuse their authority and it has come back to haunt us for decades.

Hmmm...now that's a valuable piece of info. Thanx for stating the obvious.

It is time for all of those practices to stop, and there are some indications that it is beginning to happen. That is an encouraging trend indeed, and I hope that the Army as well as all other organs of the State continue to participate in this process.

No need to mix it up. Dont try to sweep everyone with the same broom.


P.S. You wasted half of the thread on a none-issue. Would have been better if they same zeal was shown on the issue that decorates your signature.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

So, then what;s the doubt?

i think you should also read the explanation of article 245 by some renowned lawmaker. It;s available over the internet, i am sure you'll find one.

.............


Like i said, please get hold of some guud 'tasreeh' of the Constitution. Ours is not as elaborate as indians or others.

....................

Can you suggest a tashreeh that you consider as good of Article 245 so that I may be able to discuss this further after educating myself better, Sir?

 

[Xeric]

Can you suggest a tashreeh that you consider as good of Article 245 so that I may be able to discuss this further after educating myself better, Sir?

i found one in Urdu, but it's in gif format (more that 600 of them), dunno how to share. Just ask google, would you?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

i found one in Urdu, but it's in gif format (more that 600 of them), dunno how to share. Just ask google, would you?

I will try to ask Chacha Google. Who has written the one in Urdu that you refer to? A name to search for would help Sir.