PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[Rafi]

India and US agreement has nothing to do with two front war -- China itself had allowed tat in NSG

The two front war "Hoopla" you need to understand int the right context

It is not because of Indopak war and china will interfere -- because we are sure that Militarily they won't interfere

It is Indo chin war and surely pakistan will try to take advantage of that -- what do you think ??

---------- Post added at 12:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------



post that in stupid and funny section

Why so insecure Panka, listen the big bad Pakistanis are not gonna hurt you unless provoked, take your feeder and go to sleep - sweet dreams.

 

[rockstarIN]

]

Search of Prel of String, you might understand something. Why China is supplying PN with frigates and Subs if it is all about business? Please stop making claims about your armed forces in conventional warfare. They have proved their wroth twice in this decade already.

The 'strings' still with China, its upto them how far they wants to go and harm Indian interests. The more then act against us, the more we will act. Netwon's law thts it. They are arming you, we are cooperating with their opposite's interests inm their backyards.

And our force about the warefare, something you guys never understand, coz it is upto the level of thinking thats it. We were ruled by good leaders nothing else. By the way, why you need 'strategic depth' anyways? you have nukes, subs, JF-27s etc etc? still why? Our forces 'proved' their worth in the past. I'm sure you can see it in the world map. (not interested to go that area and flame it pls)

I am not under estimating anyone here. Indeed, Indian planner would love to replace China in global scene. Wouldn't they. MRCA is rejected what about other deals, particularly the nuclear agreement? P-8i, C-130, C-17, Apaches etc. What was offered against the US offers of F-16 and F-18 was more advanced and then i think rejection was based on criteria set by IAF rather than on political grounds.[

We are not, and can't replace China in global scene. We do not want to/or cant become USA or RUSSIA. We are not fools ans do not think the world is roaming around us.

US offered F-35 too again and we are not interested. Nuclear agreement is in our FAVOUR, no doubt about it.

We are buying stuff which will not affect our major war power. We are buying transports etc only. 22 Apaches is not equal to 126 fighter jets at all.

Just try to look at things more broadly, you will understand for sure.

 

[DARKY]

Our subs will form the offensive punch for our navy - with the expected purchase of largd Qing class oceanic subs - and our experience in sub warfare the IN will suffer heavy casualties both in lives and capital ships.

What has navy got to do with the thread Here ??... on some booze ??

 

[PakShaheen79]

rockstar;

Like i said earlier that according to me that rejection of the US offers in MRCA were based on IAF criteria rather than geopolitics. F-35 rejection is also makes sense as IAF is already committed PAk-FA with Russia. So having two 5th generation planes from two different worlds would not make any sense either. No military acquisition is small in political sense. J-10A with Russian engine would be deployed against IAF both in offensive and defensive role. How would you describe this change in Russian stance regarding providing Pakistan with offensive weapon platform?After all Russian could have stopped all the J-10 and JF-17 production altogether if they wanted so.

Indian certainly cannot replace the China but if you say that you don't want to then again why Two-front war preparations? IAF is already bigger both in quality and quantity when compared to PAF.

 

[GURU DUTT]

rockstar;

Like i said earlier that according to me that rejection of the US offers in MRCA were based on IAF criteria rather than geopolitics. F-35 rejection is also makes sense as IAF is already committed PAk-FA with Russia. So having two 5th generation planes from two different worlds would not make any sense either. No military acquisition is small in political sense. J-10A with Russian engine would be deployed against IAF both in offensive and defensive role. How would you describe this change in Russian stance regarding providing Pakistan with offensive weapon platform?After all Russian could have stopped all the J-10 and JF-17 production altogether if they wanted so.

Indian certainly cannot replace the China but if you say that you don't want to then again why Two-front war preparations? IAF is already bigger both in quality and quantity when compared to PAF.[/QUOTE]


Thanks Senior sir ,about your first point its like russians are doing whats in there own interests(like india is not putting all the eggs in russian basket) as in some movie there was a dialog that "to control fire on should always have water" and your second point well we have already burnt owr fingers in 1962 by not having invested in defence in northen sector so tell me do you think planners in MOD are so dumb that they wont prepare this time around , Thanks Again .

 

[Storm Force]

I,d rather stick to MMRCA answer. BUT FOR THE RECORD.

F35 has been rejected by india despite a very strong push from USA administration & lockheed combined towards the last few weeks.

USA is very keen to GET CLOSER to india by offering cutting edge tech and they are smarting for being rejected by IAF in MMRCA race in favour of the ueo canards.

THIS DOES NOT NORMALLY HAPPEN TO USA getting rejected in military sales pitch.

INDIA REJECTED F35 as the MMRCA for following

IAF genuinely bel;ieves F35 being a single engined fighter will carry limited loads over limited ranges. Both Typhoon & Rafale being twin engined carry much more punch. power.

IAF believes the unit cost at $135m basic is 20% higher than Typhoon & 25% higher than rafale

IAF believes USA will not give grant IAF 100% TOT which the euro canards will
IAF believes with so many NATO and partner nations in line for F35 first INDIA would fall into 2nd tier of supplies well past 2018 and license production 2020. Euro canards will start arrive 18 months after contract signed license production by 2014...

Finally INDIA feels THE PAK FA 5th generation fighter is far more SECURE, project long term with RUSSIA india traditional partner with TOT. flexibility of adding euro tech into indian version = mix and match and will arrive at 2020 timeframe as well.

VERY SENSIBLE DECISION BY INDIA

 

[PiyaraPakistan]

Where does this leave things on the MMRCA?


Calling this bad news for Dassault is like saying Luca Brasi is a rough man. The unexpected words of Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheik Mohamed bin Zayed on Wednesday -- released through a series of innocent looking tweets, no less -- will have created an exit wound the size of a grapefruit in the psyche of the supremely jinxed French fighter programme. A splendid fighter plane that nobody wants to buy. With this latest, decidedly rough ejection by the UAE, there's no telling where things stand for Dassault.

If you haven't been keeping up, France said it was poised to win a $10-billion deal from the UAE for 60 Rafales, a deal it has negotiating for years. On Nov 12, a day ahead of the Dubai Air Show, it became known that the "near-final" deal wasn't actually a deal at all -- and that arch-rivals Eurofighter had been invited to submit details about the Typhoon (for which they'll be in a mad scramble right now, I imagine). And today, boom. A handful of tweets by the Crown Prince brought it down with all the gentleness of a guillotine. Sample this:

"Thanks to President Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal. Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms." (Somehow, "ouch" doesn't quite say it.)

Reuters says its sources pointed to Dassault's "arrogance" as the reason behind frustration both in the French government and in the UAE. Dassault is presumably in too much shock to comment officially just yet, or may be, at the very least making an effort to confirm that this is indeed curtains in the Emirates. Either way, as FlightGlobal's Steve Trimble wrote a few days ago, "uch a loss would surely be long remembered in the industry as yet another can't-miss deal that only the French could mess up."

But it isn't over yet -- far from it. Dassault remains in "contention" -- all of this might just be the UAE's final attempt to get them to bring their final price down. They were going for the same pressure tactics when they invited the Americans in last year, and Eurofighter earlier this week. Will Dassault buckle and give UAE an acceptable price?

 

[PakShaheen79]

Any News about Indian decision on MRCA? I think it was supposed to be announce by Mid November 2011.

 

[SpArK]

Any News about Indian decision on MRCA? I think it was supposed to be announce by Mid November 2011.

Before Dec 9 .. Final date.

 

[SBD-3]

Any News about Indian decision on MRCA? I think it was supposed to be announce by Mid November 2011.

Interestingly, the negociations will start after tender is accepted (that being the tender price is consistent with benchmark price of ministry, otherwise tender will be reissued).

 

[Vibs]

Any News about Indian decision on MRCA? I think it was supposed to be announce by Mid November 2011.

Mid December
The reason why it will take 6 weeks to determine the lowest bidder.
The acquisitions manager read out in broad terms the financial terms offered by the two sides. As the executives took notes furiously, it dawned that the formulae for pricing the aircraft presented by each was so complicated that it would take weeks to determine the values.

“There is no such thing as a sticker price,” said one officer. “You don’t buy aircraft like oranges, by the kilo.”

He explained why it could take up to six weeks – may be till the end of December -- to determine the lowest bidder. “It’s a price for the whole package,” he said.

For the first 10 to 12 days, Air Headquarters expects there will be much back-and-forth between the IAF and the companies as clarifications are sought. The meeting determined that the financial bids would be tied to the price of the dollar quoted by State Bank of India’s Parliament Street branch on November 4.

The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8. M1 is the “unit flyaway cost”, the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased “off the shelf”.

M2 asks for the lifecycle costs – the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours – of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).

M3 is “operational cost”. M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a “mean time between failures” (MTBF), and lubricants.

M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade. M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence. M8 is the computation of total costs.

 

[PakShaheen79]

@husnain0099:

What kind of negotiation would be there after getting winner announced. Are you telling us that if there is a dead lock on price, the entire exercise would be re-exercised? M confused really ??

 

[SBD-3]

@husnain0099:

What kind of negotiation would be there after getting winner announced. Are you telling us that if there is a dead lock on price, the entire exercise would be re-exercised? M confused really ??

There have been evaluations till now, not negociations. Indian procurement process is awefully lenghty. The hawk deal took almost two decades to materialize as per Janes.

 

[PakShaheen79]

There have been evaluations till now, not negociations. Indian procurement process is awefully lenghty. The hawk deal took almost two decades to materialize as per Janes.

hmmm.... It means PAF would have considerable number of Block II and III of JFT, before MRCA enters IAF service and that includes the first squadron as well. But if they announce it in December (which now looks 50-50) then Block-III might come after induction of first MRCA squadron. And i am pretty sure that by that time PAF would have its hands on FC-20 as well.

 

[isi admirer]

block 3 had nothing to do with the mmrca as it is not for mmrca i think it would be the fc 20 who had to deal with mmrca i think 5 squadrons of fc 20 could be a good punch along with 60 blk 52 mlu and 150 jft blk 2 and we have to work on blk 3 till perfection because their must be stealth feture because the next 30 years are erra of stealth.......