PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[PakShaheen79]

We just need to sign the agreement to get the system unlike FC-20 which is still inside the bag. as per insider report courtesy S10-- you even not getting J10 B just a modified j10 A

Actually we know that we are not getting J-10B as FC-20. It is J-10A with modifications as per PAF requirements. Decision was made back in 2006, and at that time there was no J-10B. So it would be illogical to consider the FC-20s as J-10B.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Good dodging by you on critical aspects -- let the PLAAF gets her first J10 B

You need to understand one thing, its in the interest of the PLAAF to ensure that PAF remains armed with adequate levels of weapons because it takes pressure of them. They are not arming us heavily because they love us so much, they are only doing it to protect their flank against India. A well armed PAF relieves pressure of the PLAAF as it allows them to focus on the real threat for them which stems from Japan, US and Taiwan. They cant possibly be bothered to worry about the front against India, thus they provide Pakistan with top of the line weapons so India remains occupied with Pakistan.

Whether you like it or not, PAF will be getting the J10B's around the 2014-2015 time frame. You might see some initial J10A's being acquired a bit earlier, but that is only to keep force levels at adequate numbers and get our pilots familiarized with the platform. People who are much more knowledgable than you and have much deeper contacts in the Defence Ministry have already stated that the cabinet has approved the purchase for these aircrafts. If you really are interested, i will reveal this information to you that you will never find online and was told to me by a person who was part of the defence delegation that went to China. It is China that is much more forthcoming and enthusiastic in providing Pakistan with its top tier weapons, whatever Pakistan requested, China was more than willing to provide it and added a lot more goodies as a good will gesture to top the deal up with a cherry.

As you keep increasing your force levels near the border with China, it makes China more nervous and she counters it by providing Pakistan with more weapons at unbelievable prices. So in the end, we all have to thank India for making China nervous which leads to China providing Pakistan with her top tier weapons .

 

[PakShaheen79]

notorious_eagle:

Sir, what i can see that there is a defecto pattern of regional security is emerging in the region where Pakistan and China will be on oneside with possibly Iran and Russians joining in. India on the other hand would be with US. In Indian Ocean it is more visible and so is in South China Sea where Indian Navy is trying to venture against PLAN. Now all Chinese oil supplies and string of perl strategy depend on role and strength of PN and PAF. Indians also aware of this security scenario and that is the only reason why they are so eagerly preparing for a war against their largest trading partner.

 

[MilSpec]

You need to understand one thing, its in the interest of the PLAAF to ensure that PAF remains armed with adequate levels of weapons because it takes pressure of them. They are not arming us heavily because they love us so much, they are only doing it to protect their flank against India. A well armed PAF relieves pressure of the PLAAF as it allows them to focus on the real threat for them which stems from Japan, US and Taiwan. They cant possibly be bothered to worry about the front against India, thus they provide Pakistan with top of the line weapons so India remains occupied with Pakistan.

Whether you like it or not, PAF will be getting the J10B's around the 2014-2015 time frame. You might see some initial J10A's being acquired a bit earlier, but that is only to keep force levels at adequate numbers and get our pilots familiarized with the platform. People who are much more knowledgable than you and have much deeper contacts in the Defence Ministry have already stated that the cabinet has approved the purchase for these aircrafts. If you really are interested, i will reveal this information to you that you will never find online and was told to me by a person who was part of the defence delegation that went to China. It is China that is much more forthcoming and enthusiastic in providing Pakistan with its top tier weapons, whatever Pakistan requested, China was more than willing to provide it and added a lot more goodies as a good will gesture to top the deal up with a cherry.

As you keep increasing your force levels near the border with China, it makes China more nervous and she counters it by providing Pakistan with more weapons at unbelievable prices. So in the end, we all have to thank India for making China nervous which leads to China providing Pakistan with her top tier weapons .

I completely agree with this post... I wish Indian government would wake up to this call and pay-back pakistan by propping up afghan military in the same way. Hope that happens in my lifetime. Wonder how pakistanis will feel to live surrounded with two hostile neighbors like India?

 

[PakShaheen79]

MMRCA deal: Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircrafts
TNN Nov 5, 2011, 03.40AM IST


NEW DELHI: Now, battle-lines for the Europe versus France contest, after elimination of US and Russia in earlier rounds, have been clearly drawn. India on Friday opened the financial bids of the two fighters left in the fray for the world's biggest combat aircraft deal, but promptly declared it would take at least two-three weeks to declare the eventual winner since tons of data had to be computed.

For all its promises of "full transparency" in the medium multi-role combat aircraft ( MMRCA) contract to acquire 126 fighters, likely to be the single biggest defence deal in the run-up to the 2014 polls with its overall value set to exceed $20 billion, the defence ministry refused to say anything concrete.

Sources, however, said the "unit flyaway cost" or "direct acquisition cost" of each Eurofighter Typhoon was "higher" than the French Rafale fighter, both of which fall in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots.

But the unit flyaway cost will not be the only factor to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). The MoD will also take into account "life-cycle costs" or the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying.

Besides, there are costs of the transfer of technology (ToT) since the first 18 jets will be bought from abroad in a flyaway condition, while the rest 108 will be manufactured in India, under licence, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

"The bids were opened today in front of the Indian contract negotiating committee, comprising MoD, IAF, finance, production and quality assurance officials, as well as representatives from French Dassault and EADS (backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy). It will take a few weeks to examine and evaluate their commercial proposals to arrive at a verifiable cost model to determine the L-1," said an official.

IAF wants the actual contract to be inked by January-February to ensure the delivery of first 18 jets begins by early-2015 to stem its fast-eroding combat edge, with HAL beginning the manufacturing of the rest 108 from early-2017 onwards. "The first jet built by HAL should roll out in early-2017," said an official.

India is also likely to go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126, if the timelines for the under-development Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) projects are not met.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-11-05/india/30363528_1_french-dassault-combat-aircraft-eurofighter-typhoon

According to this latest story from Indian media;

1. Either Rafale OR the Typhoon will be the winner. No decision taken as yet.

2. Made in India deliveries would only start from 2017

3. Additional order of 63 is dependent on development of FGFA and LCA hence they are not included in this order.

 

[PWFI]

I completely agree with this post... I wish Indian government would wake up to this call and pay-back pakistan by propping up afghan military in the same way. Hope that happens in my lifetime. Wonder how pakistanis will feel to live surrounded with two hostile neighbors like India?

The question is how? yes you can do for 1-2 more years then TALIBANS are coming back so change your strategy

 

[Luftwaffe]

Pardon my ignorence sir but i think a very senior pakistani member once on this forum explaind that owr awacs are far more superior as they are command & control (they can transmit data directly to fighter planes which saves time)also & yours have do give data to ground control first & then itsguven to the fighter planes & stuff and if owr AWACS say is flying well within(50km)owr border it can still cover all pakistani airspace ,ps forgive me if im wrong and kindly describe the facts according to you Thanks Again .

I would again suggest you & your friends read it, explains in detail all the planning all engagement zones and potential areas. Every Air Force looks into and practice it. You must have also heard about AWACS Killer. AWACS will not go undetected.
http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/jp-doctrine/jp3_52%2895%29.pdf

tjpf, use forum language thankyou, your answer is the link I provided.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

may be in 2022 we will have 100+ MMRCA, 272 Su-30mki( upgraded or super standard), 68 Mig-29 UPG,51 Mirage2k5 mk2, atleast 120 Tejas, PAK-FA/FGFA-50 and PAF will be 150-200 JFT(mk1,mk2), 63 F-16 BLK15/52, J-10B initially 36 ordered, possibly 100 J-10B. Don't know about J-20.

in 2020
the delivery of all 250 jf 17s will end in 2017\2018
in 2020 we will have 150 fc20s
and 63 f 16s may be j20
these planes are inoff for our af to defend us and india will not use its all airforce against us

 

[danger007]

in 2020
the delivery of all 250 jf 17s will end in 2017\2018
in 2020 we will have 150 fc20s
and 63 f 16s may be j20
these planes are inoff for our af to defend us and india will not use its all airforce against us

i put some what real numbers. Initial order of j-10B is 36. It may be raised upto 100. I dnt think so you are going to induct more jf-17 becuase of J-10B .

 

[abdulbarijan]

i put some what real numbers. Initial order of j-10B is 36. It may be raised upto 100. I dnt think so you are going to induct more jf-17 becuase of J-10B .

Happy eid ya'll
and just because you think we wont add more JF-17's doesn't mean we wont,PAF has to replace all its fleet of F-7's and Mirage from JFT and FC-20
that means near 180 F-7's and near 150 Mirages (taken from wiki since i didn't know where to go LOL!!)
thats 330 fighters
so the initial reports were near 200-250 JFT's
that leaves room for 80-100 FC-20's

250JFT's
100 FC-20's
80 F-16 block 50/52
with good ground support,AWACS and SAMS support is one hell of a defensive airforce

 

[Emmie]

i put some what real numbers. Initial order of j-10B is 36. It may be raised upto 100.I dnt think so you are going to induct more jf-17 becuase of J-10B .

Correction, total numbers of FC-20 may be raised up to 150. PAF will induct more JFTs in order to replace old birds, JFT blk-II I mean.

 

[rockstarIN]

notorious_eagle:

Sir, what i can see that there is a defecto pattern of regional security is emerging in the region where Pakistan and China will be on oneside with possibly Iran and Russians joining in. India on the other hand would be with US. In Indian Ocean it is more visible and so is in South China Sea where Indian Navy is trying to venture against PLAN. Now all Chinese oil supplies and string of perl strategy depend on role and strength of PN and PAF. Indians also aware of this security scenario and that is the only reason why they are so eagerly preparing for a war against their largest trading partner.

PakShaheen,

There will be no regional alliances in Asia where Russia joining China/Pakistan.And it is not right thinking India joining with US against China, it is we who atke adventage of the situation and earn maximum advantage of the situation from US as well as China and USA started learning this. There is always business nothing else

And adding more arms does not mean than it is for war against China.

 

[PakShaheen79]

PakShaheen,

There will be no regional alliances in Asia where Russia joining China/Pakistan.And it is not right thinking India joining with US against China, it is we who atke adventage of the situation and earn maximum advantage of the situation from US as well as China and USA started learning this. There is always business nothing else

And adding more arms does not mean than it is for war against China.

Well, I didn't say anything definite regarding the Russian involvement in the this collective security alliance. All i said that is a POSSIBILITY.problem with geopolitics is that it remains business till a certain limit and after that it is inter-dependence. Weren't the US firms not aware of Indian arms market in 1990's after the dismemberment of USSR? All this new honey moon began after 9/11. the US does need a long term strategic partner in the region. I know Indian policy also seek to become a major player but think about it, Why the US is helping you guys to become a global player? Particularly, when it can also hurt her own long term strategic interests in the region.You would be a naive to think that you are the one taking advantage in others' games. We learned this harsh reality in last 64 years. What India offers in return in strategic terms to the US? this is the core question. Certainly, a powerful and economically strong India would be a deterrence against China in the Indian Ocean and South East Asia. Just like Japan and Taiwan are playing their roles in the East of China.

Why, in your opinion, Russians have no concerns with China supplying J-10A to Pakistan with AL-31F engines? unlike initial RD-93 when Russians were so concerned of Chinese exporting planes with those engines to Pakistan few years back?

Many people said here that China would NOT help us in an event of war against India. I ask why not, when Chinese Sea Line of Communications can be threatened by Indian Navy in Indian Ocean? and a strong Pakistan Navy can prevent Indian Navy from doing that. This is a natural geographic bond between the two which force Pakistan and China to support each other on political issues for mutual interests. On the other hand, After 9/11, Indian ans US interests also converged leading to a geopolitical alliance which is far from business.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Well, I didn't say anything definite regarding the Russian involvement in the this collective security alliance. All i said that is a POSSIBILITY.problem with geopolitics is that it remains business till a certain limit and after that it is inter-dependence. Weren't the US firms not aware of Indian arms market in 1990's after the dismemberment of USSR? All this new honey moon began after 9/11. the US does need a long term strategic partner in the region. I know Indian policy also seek to become a major player but think about it, Why the US is helping you guys to become a global player? Particularly, when it can also hurt her own long term strategic interests in the region.You would be a naive to think that you are the one taking advantage in others' games. We learned this harsh reality in last 64 years. What India offers in return in strategic terms to the US? this is the core question. Certainly, a powerful and economically strong India would be a deterrence against China in the Indian Ocean and South East Asia. Just like Japan and Taiwan are playing their roles in the East of China.

It is also business for the US. You see, America's arms manufacturing industries are some of the only viable export oriented industries. And considering that majority of India's weapons are imported from abroad (70% of the overall inventory), it is an attractive market. The Americans even offered them to join the JSF program.

India was a Cold-War foe for the US and Pakistan on the US side for reasons best known to themselves. Things have certainly changed after 9/11. A LOT.

So of-course, there is politics there. And China, about whom they are scared $hit.

Why, in your opinion, Russians have no concerns with China supplying J-10A to Pakistan with AL-31F engines? unlike initial RD-93 when Russians were so concerned of Chinese exporting planes with those engines to Pakistan few years back?

It's business as usual for the Russians. Even if a Indo-Sino war happens, they'll be more than happy to supply both of them. I think the Indians and the Russians agreed with one another that Pakistan won't be supplied with offensive weapons. Pakistan operates several Mi-17s, coupled with Russian-made engines on the JF-17s and very likely on the FC-20s. All of which aren't offensive.

Many people said here that China would NOT help us in an event of war against India. I ask why not, when Chinese Sea Line of Communications can be threatened by Indian Navy in Indian Ocean? and a strong Pakistan Navy can prevent Indian Navy from doing that. This is a natural geographic bond between the two which force Pakistan and China to support each other on political issues for mutual interests. On the other hand, After 9/11, Indian ans US interests also converged leading to a geopolitical alliance which is far from business.

They are correct. Pakistan is China's Israel. China will only defend her own interests in our neighborhood. India is not taken too seriously by the Chinese. For them, the main concerns are the US, Taiwan, Japan and perhaps Vietnam.

 

[majesticpankaj]

Check this post by you ...

Yes we aren't getting J10 B so then whats the problem ? Why would it affect us that when PLAAF gets her first J10 B ? They already have around 190 J10 A's so how exactly producing 36 more will be problem ?

I will wait until first EF or Rafale arrives in India and I can bet that FC20's will make their way into Pakistan way before the first EF or Rafale arrives ... You have no idea of the Chinese speed of production ... Try looking at our previous deals ... They were all completed in record time and Our Defense purchases are usually not boasted about so a complete silence in expected ...

Buddy ... you have showed concerns regarding the production of chinese engines for their jets because of supply chain issues and now you are claiming that delivering 36 FC-20 won't be a problem for chinese ?

If I am not wrong it is been almost 3 years Jf-17 production has been started-- how many you have currently ??