PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[danger007]

Buddy ... you have showed concerns regarding the production of chinese engines for their jets because of supply chain issues and now you are claiming that delivering 36 FC-20 won't be a problem for chinese ?

If I am not wrong it is been almost 3 years Jf-17 production has been started-- how many you have currently ??

upto may 2011 its 30.

 

[majesticpankaj]

You need to understand one thing, its in the interest of the PLAAF to ensure that PAF remains armed with adequate levels of weapons because it takes pressure of them. They are not arming us heavily because they love us so much, they are only doing it to protect their flank against India. A well armed PAF relieves pressure of the PLAAF as it allows them to focus on the real threat for them which stems from Japan, US and Taiwan. They cant possibly be bothered to worry about the front against India, thus they provide Pakistan with top of the line weapons so India remains occupied with Pakistan.

Whether you like it or not, PAF will be getting the J10B's around the 2014-2015 time frame. You might see some initial J10A's being acquired a bit earlier, but that is only to keep force levels at adequate numbers and get our pilots familiarized with the platform. People who are much more knowledgable than you and have much deeper contacts in the Defence Ministry have already stated that the cabinet has approved the purchase for these aircrafts. If you really are interested, i will reveal this information to you that you will never find online and was told to me by a person who was part of the defence delegation that went to China. It is China that is much more forthcoming and enthusiastic in providing Pakistan with its top tier weapons, whatever Pakistan requested, China was more than willing to provide it and added a lot more goodies as a good will gesture to top the deal up with a cherry.

As you keep increasing your force levels near the border with China, it makes China more nervous and she counters it by providing Pakistan with more weapons at unbelievable prices. So in the end, we all have to thank India for making China nervous which leads to China providing Pakistan with her top tier weapons .

What I am getting from your post is that China is using pakistan as pawn. Look -- if India can make china nervous so does pakistan can make india nervous. With big pocket and huge defence budget we can have whatever we want. the spending ratio is 10: 1 in India's favors. see- we issue tenders to get the best weapon systems unlike pakistan who has to rely on china.

*If u have heard the recent interviews of Indian forces : they are saying we are more into making CAPABILITY BASED forces rather than enemy centric forces-- doesn't it imply that whatever system we will induct can deter both china and Pakistan ??

Huge implications for PAF because of enormous resources we have.

* I never said that PAF is not getting FC-20 but I have just questioned the time frame.

---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------

MMRCA deal: Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircrafts - Times Of India

According to this latest story from Indian media;

1. Either Rafale OR the Typhoon will be the winner. No decision taken as yet.

2. Made in India deliveries would only start from 2017

3. Additional order of 63 is dependent on development of FGFA and LCA hence they are not included in this order.

There is a article posted by Sancho in MCRA thread recently go through it and enlighten yourself .. thanks

 

[PakShaheen79]

There is a article posted by Sancho in MCRA thread recently go through it and enlighten yourself .. thanks

If you want to entertain only a selected piece in media, I am also eligible for the same Why to look for the old stuff, when we have latest one with us.

Update: Decision Time for MMRCA

November 4, 2011 11:34

The long process of the selection of the future 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) for the Indian Air Force is reaching a crucial milestone today, with the opening of the two offers, submitted by the European consortium EADS offering the Eurofighter Typhoon and French company Dassault offering the Rafale. The request for proposal (RFP) for the acquisition worth over US$10.4 billion was originally issued in 2007.

If you are awaiting a clear cut who is the lowest bidder today, you will be disappointed. Opening the financial bids in the presence of the two vendors was only a formal act, with both companies realizing the unit price offered by the competitor. MoD is expected to enter a final price negotiation with both bidders to select the preferred supplier. The decision will count other factors such as the life-cycle cost and transfer of technology will also have to be factored inBased on the full offers, the Indian Ministry of Defense will evaluate the two bids, calculating who the lowest bidder (L1) is based on many parameters laid down in the RFP. After the decision is made, mandatory contract will be awarded to the lowest bidder. Another issue is the offset obligations each bidder will assume.

How much the preferred vendor will have to ‘reinvest’ (or buy back from India) is unclear. While the initial cost was US$10.4 billion, according to recent estimates, the current cost could be double that – around $20 billion, reflecting current currency exchange and realistic cost estimate of the two finalists, considered to be the most costly options among the original contenders the Financial Times. Since the Indian government has increased the offset obligations on this specific mega-deal from 30% to 50%, the winners’ offset obligations alone could mount to the entire cost of the original program.

Aircraft flyaway cost are expected to reflect the price charged for the 18 planes to be built by the supplier, and remaining 108 planes to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in India. The final amount should also reflect the induction process, in-country logistics and support sustaining the fighters through their operational life span.

The “unit flyaway cost” or “direct acquisition cost” of each fighter falls in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots, the Times of India reported, claiming unnamed officials mentioned the Eurofighter price was “higher” than the French fighter…

Decision Time for MMRCA | Defense Update

Well unfortunately this article too draws the same conclusion regarding the status of MRCA as i posted earlier based on the post of Times of India.

 

[majesticpankaj]

@Pakshaheen-- that article was posted yesterday... read this

108 MMRCAS will roll out from Bangalore; cool HAL waits for the big winner

Bangalore: Plane-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chose not to jump into the MMRCA madness, even as aviation pundits world over are tracking every bit of news on the opening of a bumper commercial bid. While the Ministry of Defence officials scanned macro price points along with Typhoon (Eurofighter) and Rafale (Dassault) representatives in Delhi, senior officials of HAL remained cool as a cucumber. They probably knew, who ever bags the $10.4 b order, they will be the biggest winner.
Out of the 126 combat MMRCA fighters, HAL will manufacture 108 aircraft (make category) at the Aircraft Division in Bangalore, while the first 18 (buy category) will come in a fly-away condition from the hangars of the winner. “First we will make few planes from a semi-knocked-down kit, then from completely knocked-down kit and finally from absolute raw material phase. Once, we are clear with the rules of the game, we will start parallel activities,” HAL sources said.
When asked how significant will be the MMRCA project to HAL, the official said: “It will be a huge learning curve for us as we lay our hands on the next-level of fighter jet. It will also give us some learning points for our Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project. We will be able to extrapolate the MMRCA knowledge to FGFA. Definitely it is an exciting prospect to get involved with Western aircraft technology.”
Currently HAL’s Hawk production line is abuzz with activities and they are hoping to complete the delivery of the remaining 15 aircraft (out of a total 42 made under licence) by the end of 2011-2012. “This line will be busy for couple of years more as we have an additional order of 57 aircraft. So, MMRCA will be a separate production line, with likely additional manpower,” sources said. HAL’s Engine Division in Bangalore will also play a key role in the MMRCA project.
While it is very sketchy to predict when the Indian Air Force will get the first HAL-built MMRCA, the company is seeing this as an opportunity to raise the bar of professional work sphere. ”We need to possibly empower our managers and encourage them to take risks fearlessly. Risk-taking and ability to take swift decisions are vital when we work on a massive project like MMRCA,” the official said.


(Copyright@The New Indian Express. The above piece
appeared on November 5th edition of Express.)

 

[Rafi]

Our 5th Generation Aircraft from China will have the ability to checkmate anything can purchase or develop, also the J10P (Pakistan) a Pakistani specific J10 and JF17 final block 4.5 Gen and 4th Gen respectively - together with our AWACS makes our conventional deterrence in the air complete.

 

[foxbat]

Our 5th Generation Aircraft from China will have the ability to checkmate anything can purchase or develop, also the J10P (Pakistan) a Pakistani specific J10 and JF17 final block 4.5 Gen and 4th Gen respectively - together with our AWACS makes our conventional deterrence in the air complete.

You dont have any of the stuff you just mentioned above.. Do you??

 

[rockstarIN]

PakShaheen79;2263519]Well, I didn't say anything definite regarding the Russian involvement in the this collective security alliance. All i said that is a POSSIBILITY.problem with geopolitics is that it remains business till a certain limit and after that it is inter-dependence

.

All are really underestimate Indo-Russian relations but I stop short of calling it 'all weather friendship' sort of coz I really think that all will hild own interests first. We still are friends, you remember MMS went directly to Russia after coming from Washington sealing the Nuclear deal to explain Moscow about it.

Weren't the US firms not aware of Indian arms market in 1990's after the dismemberment of USSR? All this new honey moon began after 9/11. the US does need a long term strategic partner in the region. I know Indian policy also seek to become a major player but think about it, Why the US is helping you guys to become a global player? Particularly, when it can also hurt her own long term strategic interests in the region.You would be a naive to think that you are the one taking advantage in others' games

.

USA was well aware of Indian arms market much before 9/11. Why did not we go to Russia for LCA problems initially and go for American LM? Our scientists were working at US when the Nuke blast happens and subsequently got embargoed.

Everybody have own interests. It is now more than USA's to ally with India than ours. We know our stregnths.

In Asia, India is not least player, thats why US choose India to aly with, they could have done this with Myanmer, Malaysia etc, But It cant help to contain China at all.

And do you really think we are in their laps? remember about the MRCA, rejection of F35, we would like to keep our earlier posture.

We learned this harsh reality in last 64 years. What India offers in return in strategic terms to the US? this is the core question. Certainly, a powerful and economically strong India would be a deterrence against China in the Indian Ocean and South East Asia. Just like Japan and Taiwan are playing their roles in the East of China.

India is not Pakistan, your leaders were short visioned not ours. They used you for Afgan purpose, twice.

What do you think, India ever allow US jet to operate to attack China, leave even pakistan NO...

Again Indo-US partnership is about mutual interest. We have no fear to reject their best planes for the sake of our national security. Our airforce insisted to take out all American parts on whatever costs from hawk training jets from UK..

Why, in your opinion, Russians have no concerns with China supplying J-10A to Pakistan with AL-31F engines? unlike initial RD-93 when Russians were so concerned of Chinese exporting planes with those engines to Pakistan few years back?

Again do not underestimate Indo-Russian relations, we are doing billions of biz with them. Supplying engines does not change any scenerio in south asia. It is a matter of time, may be a decade, China get the idea of engine tech.
What do you think, If India says we will off from PAKFA if Russia not withdraw from engine sales to Pakistan. This deal does not hold such strategic value.

Many people said here that China would NOT help us in an event of war against India. I ask why not, when Chinese Sea Line of Communications can be threatened by Indian Navy in Indian Ocean? and a strong Pakistan Navy can prevent Indian Navy from doing that. This is a natural geographic bond between the two which force Pakistan and China to support each other on political issues for mutual interests. On the other hand, After 9/11, Indian ans US interests also converged leading to a geopolitical alliance which is far from business.

Pakistan can hold defense strategy against India in the coming decades, not offensive in case of Navy as well as AF.

It is foolishness to think PN will hold IN in Indian Ocean, and I agree with you that India is in alliancw with US and allys in waters but still we are not what UK to US.

 

[PakShaheen79]

@Pakshaheen-- that article was posted yesterday... read this

108 MMRCAS will roll out from Bangalore; cool HAL waits for the big winner

Bangalore: Plane-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chose not to jump into the MMRCA madness, even as aviation pundits world over are tracking every bit of news on the opening of a bumper commercial bid. While the Ministry of Defence officials scanned macro price points along with Typhoon (Eurofighter) and Rafale (Dassault) representatives in Delhi, senior officials of HAL remained cool as a cucumber. They probably knew, who ever bags the $10.4 b order, they will be the biggest winner.
Out of the 126 combat MMRCA fighters, HAL will manufacture 108 aircraft (make category) at the Aircraft Division in Bangalore, while the first 18 (buy category) will come in a fly-away condition from the hangars of the winner. “First we will make few planes from a semi-knocked-down kit, then from completely knocked-down kit and finally from absolute raw material phase. Once, we are clear with the rules of the game, we will start parallel activities,” HAL sources said.
When asked how significant will be the MMRCA project to HAL, the official said: “It will be a huge learning curve for us as we lay our hands on the next-level of fighter jet. It will also give us some learning points for our Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project. We will be able to extrapolate the MMRCA knowledge to FGFA. Definitely it is an exciting prospect to get involved with Western aircraft technology.”
Currently HAL’s Hawk production line is abuzz with activities and they are hoping to complete the delivery of the remaining 15 aircraft (out of a total 42 made under licence) by the end of 2011-2012. “This line will be busy for couple of years more as we have an additional order of 57 aircraft. So, MMRCA will be a separate production line, with likely additional manpower,” sources said. HAL’s Engine Division in Bangalore will also play a key role in the MMRCA project.
While it is very sketchy to predict when the Indian Air Force will get the first HAL-built MMRCA, the company is seeing this as an opportunity to raise the bar of professional work sphere. ”We need to possibly empower our managers and encourage them to take risks fearlessly. Risk-taking and ability to take swift decisions are vital when we work on a massive project like MMRCA,” the official said.


(Copyright@The New Indian Express. The above piece
appeared on November 5th edition of Express.)

Well, i think it endorsed what i said in my post based on other pieces published in Indian media. What is in this article to enlighten me, anyway?

 

[PakShaheen79]

.

It is foolishness to think PN will hold IN in Indian Ocean, and I agree with you that India is in alliancw with US and allys in waters but still we are not what UK to US.

That is exactly what i said that China is and would help us in event of war due to her own interests. As far as becoming next UK for the US, trust me... it is just the beginning. Why US would need to use your airspace to put her pilots in harm's way when you are already preparing for a two front war just like US wants. Welcome to the GREAT GEAME for dominance in Eurasian region in 21st century.

 

[majesticpankaj]

That is exactly what i said that China is and would help us in event of war due to her own interests. As far as becoming next UK for the US, trust me... it is just the beginning. Why US would need to use your airspace to put her pilots in harm's way when you are already preparing for a two front war just like US wants. Welcome to the GREAT GEAME for dominance in Eurasian region in 21st century.

Just replace US with china and India with pakistan -- India is not US's pawn

 

[rockstarIN]

That is exactly what i said that China is and would help us in event of war due to her own interests. As far as becoming next UK for the US, trust me... it is just the beginning. Why US would need to use your airspace to put her pilots in harm's way when you are already preparing for a two front war just like US wants. Welcome to the GREAT GEAME for dominance in Eurasian region in 21st century.

Any kind of Chinese help wont help PN in the event of war unless untill they directly enter the conflict, which it will always avoid as there will be more players around.

And trust me, Indian planners may be prepared a war strategy against even USA in the region, coz that is the way evey military works. Nobody wants surprises at all. So it is more of a common thing in case of two front war. |You really underestimate our policy maker's ability. They are doing quite well. We really know where we stand and Pakistani's really happy to see India is closing in with USA. MRCA rejection is a wake up call for that notion.,

 

[PakShaheen79]

Just replace US with china and India with pakistan -- India is not US's pawn

hmmm.... really, then make me understand all this newly born hoopla of Two Front War in Indian military establishment after 2005, the year India and the US signed the nuclear deal.

 

[Rafi]

Our subs will form the offensive punch for our navy - with the expected purchase of largd Qing class oceanic subs - and our experience in sub warfare the IN will suffer heavy casualties both in lives and capital ships.

 

[majesticpankaj]

hmmm.... really, then make me understand all this newly born hoopla of Two Front War in Indian military establishment after 2005, the year India and the US signed the nuclear deal.

India and US agreement has nothing to do with two front war -- China itself had allowed tat in NSG

The two front war "Hoopla" you need to understand int the right context

It is not because of Indopak war and china will interfere -- because we are sure that Militarily they won't interfere

It is Indo chin war and surely pakistan will try to take advantage of that -- what do you think ??

---------- Post added at 12:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------

Our subs will form the offensive punch for our navy - with the expected purchase of largd Qing class oceanic subs - and our experience in sub warfare the IN will suffer heavy casualties both in lives and capital ships.

post that in stupid and funny section

 

[PakShaheen79]

Any kind of Chinese help wont help PN in the event of war unless untill they directly enter the conflict, which it will always avoid as there will be more players around.

And trust me, Indian planners may be prepared a war strategy against even USA in the region, coz that is the way evey military works. Nobody wants surprises at all. So it is more of a common thing in case of two front war. |You really underestimate our policy maker's ability. They are doing quite well. We really know where we stand and Pakistani's really happy to see India is closing in with USA. MRCA rejection is a wake up call for that notion.,

Search of Prel of String, you might understand something. Why China is supplying PN with frigates and Subs if it is all about business? Please stop making claims about your armed forces in conventional warfare. They have proved their wroth twice in this decade already.

I am not under estimating anyone here. Indeed, Indian planner would love to replace China in global scene. Wouldn't they. MRCA is rejected what about other deals, particularly the nuclear agreement? P-8i, C-130, C-17, Apaches etc. What was offered against the US offers of F-16 and F-18 was more advanced and then i think rejection was based on criteria set by IAF rather than on political grounds.