PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[JEFF]

REPLY TO JEFF.

Regardin ur 1st point it is quite clear to for me n u to understand wut IAF is goin to go for, i think ive clearly mentioned in the first post, read it again to clarify urself, i clearly meant SH it can be seen clearly.

But I didn’t raise fingure over the designation SH rather it was F/A-18, since there is a big difference between F-18 and F/A-18 as far as their dimension and certain changes are concerened.

Coming on to ur 2nd point, yes spares can be developed but in quantities mentioned by Boeing u jus cannot make spares in unlimited quantites n use them, there r always limits to the amounts of spares that u can make.

Why do we need to make those spares in unlimited quantities? As along as we can kept those SH flying with sufficient amt of spares till then I don’t think we need unlimited quantities of spares.

Reply to ur 3rd point, I'm sorry US aircraft aint like none other, u know this, Russian is full of old tech, n even European manfacturers lack behind US, because US is the trend setter!!!, has anyone come up with a 5th generation aircraft, even Russians r still in the designin phase of their 5th generation aircraft as far as Europeans are concerned dont know when they r goin to bring their 5th generation out possibly when US has already manufactured its 6th generation fighter!!!!

Well according to my third point I never braught the comparisons of US and all other aircrafts. Rather I bring IAF’s competence to handle different breed of aircraft. I guess you should one re-read my previous statement.

Reply to ur 4th point, jus tell me wut is the use of spendin $15 Billion to buy Sh when boeing has already stated that they r goin to take this SH into a 5th generation aircraft in the comin few years, by the time u get the technology after 2012,

Well as far as present thread perceptions are concerned we are spending $10 billion behind MRCA and not $15 Billion as you stated.

Moreover pls tell me or provide a link where it says that Boeing gona transform SH into 5th generation fighter in coming years.

we would be lookin into 5th Generation fighters like F35's which I'm pretty sure PAF will go for cause our Turkish brothers have already commited themselves to a 100 F-35's.

Oh my goodness, Purchases of F-35 by PAF from Turkish Bothers, then why doesn’t PAF purchase F-16s from similar Turkish Bothers currently?

U can use this $15 billion big ticket purchase n improve ur failed Tejas fighter n Arjuns,

According to your viewpoint Tejas and Arjuns are definetly failed, but we need to try in order to get failed, there is no shortcuts to success, those who don’t even try for the fear of failure are the biggest loosers in the world.

that way u will get self reliance n u will not fill beoing's pockets who will simply make more advanced version of SH a 5th generation one.

Pls provide the link to for Boeing project of SH of turning it into 5th generation one?

Reply to ur 5th point, there was a guy who went to a pharmacy n he asked for a medicine, the guy said him only 1 packet of the medicine he was annoyed he increased his purchase from 1 packet to 20 packs at the same moment, it's not abut spending money but u have ur pockets full of cash at this time, u shuld spend money in the quatities u need to, jus don't close ur eyes n distribute money to lockheed or anyone else,

I think we are well mature enough to take the decision in order to where to spends properly.

wut is the use of buyin C-130's when u r makin ur own transport aircraft????

That because C-130 will used in completely different role which our project transport aircraft will take some time to fulfill till it get inducted.

it is not how hard PAK hits India it is how good THEY hit them when they are in a fight with them that's why we survived 60 years of Independance with extremist always keepin an evil eye on our Country n willin to strike us anytime they get a chance.

I think above stuff is completely irrelevant to current topic.

Reply to ur 6th point, Indians need to learn not to teach US lessons as they r doin now,

I guess India don’t need to learn from you as how teach US a lessons.

u think u r smart at sayin wut u said to US, US is a real ***** n it will kick India's *** when it needs to jus wait n see, can't u see wut it did to Russia, learn some lessons from history, US cannot see some one comin near to it's level so it eliminates that country if ur's try to do that which im pretty sure u will then ur country will learn a hard lesson next after Russia.

I think you yourself has said that learn some lessons from history, well have we learn that lessons quite brilliantly and applying those learning in present scenario. Today’s world is more diverse and complex and hence US is currently finding it hard to cope with current geo-political scenario.

Reply to ur 7th point, hello wake up, they gave a green signal for the export of AESA not TOT AESA they wuld never give this tech to anyone, by the way can u provide me with a source that they have allowed indians to manufacture AESA in their country.

Truly said, even I confessed that I got little awry on previous occasion and said some invalid statement about TOT of AESA. But Boeing is quite keen upon providing TOT of AESA to India, but last words is only upto the US congress, even US congressmen has never stated that they will never provide India with TOT of AESA, so they might be reviewing about wheather to provide TOT over it or not and more or less is entirely dependent upon inking of Nucler pact.

U talk abut economical prosperous countru wut was ur dear friend Russia when it was broken by Bin Laden into pieces, it was a super power,

Ha ha ha ha, good entertaining stuff as Bin Laden broken Russia into the pieces. This is something hard to digest even Pakistani citizens over here.

so jus don't sink in this scenario that if u have a strong economy US will not keep an evil eye on u. US strategy is they will dry all the water from the river, then when u have no choice left to drink from u will beg for the water US has, get my point.

But our water sources are hailing from Himalyan regions as well as Monsoons, so don’t worry about US strategy of drying of all water from the river.

Goin the US way, Russia will not be happy!!!!

India is more then enough mature to balance Diplomatic ties with Russia and US.

Reply to ur 8th, 9th n 10th points, please clearly specify wut u mean by ur 8th point, I think india shuld learn lesson that not only PAF's F-16 spares were banned but even Turkey's F-16's spares were banned as one of the forum members mentioned it earlier, so get my point US doesn't give $hit as to who anyone is they will ban spares when they need to.

As you seems to be quite competent in predicting the future so tell me as for what would be the reason for which US would banned spares for India when they need to ?

What are those needs?

Jus wonderin how will India have good experience in dealin with black markets, it has no need to, don't u think.

Now its upto you, since you were the one who braught the point of Black markets.

Reply to ur 11th n 12th point, o really old myth that India will not go for extra 74 when their squadrons strength has dramatically fallen, how will u bring ur sqaudron strength bak to normal,

But how does depleting in squadron strength translate you into bring those numbers back into order by getting extra 74 MRCA?

Since for that matter we have already order extra Su-30MKI.

by buyin more jets u jus can't bring in ur Tejas to fill the gap cause even it is no where near ready after Billions in R & D.

See Tejas is a learning platform for us. We can bring them into operation in a couple of years as far as eagerness of several foreign firm in helping it but we will not gona learn anything from it and hence it is taking so much time since we are undertaking all its entire development from scratch.

U talk abut budget PAK budget is like a glacier u can only see $4.5 billion at the top but they spend more than this,

Pls tell me a concrete amt that they spend more then $ 4.5 billion?

one of the members stated in his post that PAK has already crossed it allocated budget,

May be PAF has crossed its allocated budget, but that doesn’t mean that they can go on shopping spree all over the world.

so do u think our budget is wut we say to the world, NO!!!!! jus dont think we cant afford Patriot's,

If you can afford Patriots, then why does PAF cancelled 18 F-16 order because of limited budget?

if PAF thinks it needs them they will get them no matter wut!!!!

But intense thinking of PAF doesn’t translate into a purchase of whatever they feel to purchase.

n we r not unbalancin the the balance of power in the region it is u who r doin that!!!!! wut we do is just a reply to wut u do!!!!!

Well we have two enemies to face and hence we can justify our purchase of weapons.

Reply to ur 13th, 14th n 15th points, PAF has always operated lower number of jets to ur 750 we operate 450 approximately so IF we buy 3 squadrons i think its fine because we have our JF-17 comin up with Western goodies on it so we don't need to purchase expensive aircraft we will build the aircraft at home n buy weapons from abroad.
PAF already operates a 2 engine fighter as i said IF they feel the need of goin this way they will no matter wut!!!!!

It is not PAF who is feeling about it rather your feelings, Just because they are operating two engine fighter in the form of Q-5 that doesn’t mean that they would be able to operate fuel hungry all other twin engine jets.

Thank's for wishin me best of luck for my exams, it's my second year finals

In what streams? I mean Commerce, Arts, Science, or Engineering.

 

[ejaz007]

Webby,
Cabinet has already approved purchase of 36 J-10. I think it was in April 2006. So they are coming. The question is only when.

 

[EagleEyes]

Webby,
Cabinet has already approved purchase of 36 J-10. I think it was in April 2006. So they are coming. The question is only when.

It is a news to me. Please share a link if you have one.

Considering that the another order of 18 F-16s has been canceled.

 

[JEFF]

My remainin analysis on MRCA, startin with the 2 single engine fighters up in the race in MRCA, F-16IN & Gripen.

F-16IN & Gripen.

Startin with F-16IN, as far as i know this plane is being offered with the latest version after Block-60 of UAE, Lockheed says that it has quite advanced capabilities compared to Block 60's and 52's, I really doubt, as far as i have seen in the new block 70 there would only be a new engine thats it,

Kindly explain what kind of a engine sigificance have you seen in F-16IN?

not a big deal, india has always been reluctant in the past 40 years to buy F-16's cause it knows that PAF operates it so with new avionics i dont think IAF will get a chance to withstand PAF's F-16 cause our pilots have 2 decades of experience with this plane, NO WAY INDIA IS GOIN TO GO THIS WAY!!!

If that was the case then India never may have purchases improved versions of Mirage planes during 80s since even PAF were operating Mirage-5?

Even if IAF goes for these planes the best answer which i can think of in my mind is PAF shuld not get worried with this purchase, they shuld keep on improving their JF-17's and making them in large numbers, get the F-16's which it is goin to get, possibly equip half of them with SABR AESA (also get an AESA for the next batches of JF-17's), also get METEOR or AIM 120-D's to get the first shot at the opponent in case of war and equip JF-17's with these goodies n see wut happens

Does AESA radar SABR is so advanced then APG-80? I mean that would allow JF-17 to have a first shot.

Now comin to Gripen.

Well by the time gripen comes out with its goodies in 2015 (its technologies by that time would be outdated), our JF-17 would have matured enough to match or even possibly exceed it, wut i wuld suggest in this case is that PAF stick to JF-17's n take their numbers to 250 possibly, equip them with AESA, AIM 120-C, AIM-9L, also install different types of targetting pods on it n this is wut will be best for PAF n the most cost effective n 200% reliable for PAF,

So does this mean that Gripen will remain exception to any upgrade? and how does it will gona get outdated by 2015?

n see wut happens, so i would not worry if IAF goes for gripen, which i highly doubt they will

Since its role is quite resemeblance to Tejas.

Comin to Rafale, Eurofighter.

Well, these r very good fighters, Rafale is a proven fighter n all rounder where as Eurofighter has to prove itself a bit more n show the world wut it is capable of, both these aircrafts r 4.5 generation aircraft, if IAF purchases any of the 2 aircraft, in my view wut PAF's possible response shuld be keep with the Block 52's which it is procuring possibly with SABR AESA's, JF-17's with AESA, J-10 with AESA n a different kind of targettin pod, n in 2015 issue n RFP for F-35's by that time we would have more money to get this 5th generation plane, in my view 4 squadrons would be enough if ordered in 2016 may arrive by 2020, this plane can seriously help PAF to further improve its JF-17 n can also be used to improve other aircraft which PAF may also be think of procurin like J-XX, it can also be used to make J-10 a 5th generation fighter possibly.

Now the fighter remaining is Mig-35.

Well, guys i cant say anythin abut this fighter cause i dont know this plane quite well like others so wuld not comment abut this fighter.

Concluding my analysis wut ever is the outcome of MRCA, in short this is wut PAF shuld do in my view:

Get all it's F-16's to Block 52 level(100 of them), with conformal fuel tanks, targettin pods, SABR AESA.
Get all 250 JF-17's with an AESA, a smoke free engine, which also doesnot give a blue flame at night time which can easily be seen by the enemy (Please do some changing in the tail of JF-17, i dont know why but i donot find it quite good as the F-16's, i like the fighter but i really don't like it's tail).
Get J-10's with n AESA possibly conformal fuel tanks like the ones on f-16's possible, equip it with some kind of pod for EW or somethin else.
After 2015 order F-35's, 4 squadrons, PAF wuld be the first Airforce in South East Asia to fly this bird, India will not buy it cause it will have lots of different planes like MRCA, it Su-30's, upgraded Mig-29's n Jaguars etc.
Equip all these babies with BVRAAM like Metoer n AIM-120D's, also AIM-120C's n AIM-9L, etc.

That's all wut i think, well i dont know how u guys found this analysis, but anyway i said wut i think n welcome wut others think

n thank u all especially the senior members for commentin on this topic

Now this entire para is quite entertaining as far as purchase of 4 squadrons of F-35 is concerned.

 

[ejaz007]

Cabinet okays Chinese, F-16 jets procurement
From our correspondent

ISLAMABAD -- Approving the procurement of F-16s as well as Chinese fighters, the Federal Cabinet on Wednesday resolved to maintain credible air defence of the country.
At the outset of the meeting under Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz the cabinet condemned the Karachi suicide bomb blast, Federal Information Minister Sheikh Rashid brief the media here about the meeting.
He, however, said it was not yet clear whether it was a sectarian violence or a foreign backed act of terror.
The cabinet decided not to call out Army for law enforcement in Karachi as police and Rangers were controlling the post-blast situation in the provincial capital, the minister responded to a questioner.
However, he said, army troops were carrying out flag march in sensitive areas of the city.
According to Sheikh Rashid, Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao briefed the cabinet on the overall security situation in Karachi and the cabinet termed security situation under control and ordered immediate arrest of the culprits.
To a question about the strike in reaction to the blast killing over 50 people, the minister said, Pakistan is a democratic country and its people are free to express their emotions.
According to the minister, heirs of the blast victims would be paid Rs 300,000 each as compensation and the injured would get Rs 50,000 each.
To a question about the recent American desire for civilian rule in Pakistan over military and its linkage to the return of former Prime Ministers in exile, Sheikh Rashid said US Assistant Secretary of State Boucher himself had responded to a similar question that this was Pakistan’s internal matter.
Earlier, the Health Minister informed the cabinet that there was no bird flu in the country and the local chicken meat was safe of such viruses.
According to the information minister, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz while addressing the cabinet, said in categorical terms that the current assemblies would complete their tenure and the next elections would be held towards the end of 2007 or early 2008.
Rashid said the cabinet also noted the issue of President General Pervez Musharraf’s military uniform and decided that this issue would be decided in 2007 according to the Constitutional provisions. Asked about the interim government after the completion of the current assemblies tenure, Sheikh Rashid said it was premature to say anything in this regard.
The cabinet also decided to hold national population census in 2008, as it was required after every ten years, he said. To a question, he added, it might not be possible to hold early next elections as the same would be due not before the start of the year 2008 and it would a process requiring months if not a year.
During the meeting the cabinet also approved the privatization of the Pakistan Telecom Company Limited.
While giving details of the aircraft to be bought from both US and China, Sheikh Rashid said Pakistan would get both new version of F-16s called CD as well as AB-version the older one in addition to high-tech Chinese fighters.
The federal cabinet, he said, reiterated its resolve to maintain credible defence and meet the needs of Pakistan Air Force.
The interior minister briefed the cabinet also on the situation in Blochistan and Waziristan.
The Nation

Webby,
The chinese fighter is the J-10. Unfortunately I have not been able to trace the link which clearly said that J-10 was approved for purcahse. That I think was daily times newspaper.
Regards,

 

[IceCold]

The purchase of the J-10 was approved by the cabinet, however a joint working group was formed to meet the demands of the PAF w.r.t to the J-10. I think PAF was not entirely satisfied with it and therefore went for the F-16 untill the J-10 gets matured enough to be inducted in the PAF. When will that happen, is still to be seen considering the fact the chinese aero industry lacks the expertise that of the west.

 

[Neo]

Remind you ejaz that J-10 hasn't been selected. It is in the cards, with other cards. But seeing the potential of the J-10.. we might really see it in the PAF. Thats the current perspective of the PAF within.

Webby,

36 J-10's have been ordered, I posted the news on April 16th.

Defence spending exceeds budgetary allocation ​

ISLAMABAD (April 16 2008): Procurement of Swedish military technology, and JF-17 Thunder aircraft from China for Pakistan Air Force has increased Defence budget by 27 percent to Rs 350 billion from Rs 275 billion allocated in the 2007-08 budget, official sources told Business Recorder here on Tuesday.

Finance Minister Ishaq Dar, in his briefing to the Cabinet a few days ago had disclosed that the government had spent additional Rs 38.5 billion on procurement of defence equipment and aircraft under the Armed Forces Development Program (AFDP) for which not a single penny was allocated in the 2007-08 budget.

"Previous government did not allocate a single penny under AFDP in the budget but later on projected Rs 75 billion for this purpose, of which Rs 38.5 billion has already been paid to procure early warning system from Sweden and JF-17 Thunder from China," sources said.

An official of Finance Ministry confirmed that the government had projected Rs 75 billion over and above the allocated defence budget for procurement for military hardware, of which Rs 38.5 billion has already been paid.

"PAF has seriously lagged behind over the years, mainly due to various geo-political and economic constraints. In order to redress this capability deficit, PAF has very carefully evaluated the hi-tech options against well-defined air staff requirements," sources said.

It is not clear when it was decided to purchase these very expensive items: at the time of the budget, when this item was deliberately kept out to show a lower deficit or at a later time by the PAF for which approval must have been sought by the President.

Attempt was made to contact Secretary, Defence, Kamran Rasool, and PAF spokesman Sarfraz Ahmad, but no response was received. The government had allocated Rs 275 billion for defence in the federal budget, of which Rs 170.2 billion has already been spent during July-February against the projections of Rs 167.5 billion.

On April 12, 2006, federal cabinet had decided to purchase 98 hi-tech aircraft from the United States and China besides missiles and other equipment to improve the capabilities of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). When the proposal had been approved, PAF's combat fleet consisted of around 350 aircraft.

The bulk of its inventory comprises old Mirages and Chinese-origin A-5, FT-6 and F-7 aircraft. With the exception of F-7 PGs, most of these aircraft are more than 20 years old and are scheduled to retire between 2008 and 2015.

Foreseeing this retirement schedule and the known difficulties associated with replacing all old aircraft with western equipment, PAF embarked upon the co-development of JF-17 aircraft. The induction of JF-17 had been planned so as to have a systematic replacement of the retired fleet.

According to an official document, exclusively obtained by Business Recorder, mixed package of hi-tech aircraft and equipment, being purchased from USA and China, is as under: FC-20 aircraft (36), SD-10 BVR missiles (300), F-16 A/B, ex-Pakistan (26), F-16 C/D (18 with an option for 18 more), BVR, 500(American), targeting pods 18 and joint direct attack munitions (500). The expenditure on the entire package would be met from PAF share in Armed Forces Development Program (AFDP-2019), the document says.

The Cabinet, according to the document, has allowed PAF to set up Joint Working Group (JWG) with CATIC for procurement of 36 FC-20 aircraft. The government would also help PAF in securing long-term credit financing for the FC-20 aircraft from Chinese government, besides allowing PAF to initiate a Letter of Request (LoR) for the F-16 package and equipment through the Defence Ministry.

While the US F-16 C/D and Swedish Grippen qualified against the PAF requirements, the Chinese FC-20, in its present state, lagged behind due to the lack of advanced avionics systems and weapons. For the future, however, PAF termed it as a good option with very promising growth potential to become one of the frontline fighters to face the challenges of the 21st century, the sources maintained.

Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...-exceeds-budgetary-allocation.html#post151162

 

[Energon]

Why didn't Pakistan get in on the development of the J-10 when China first conceived the program?

 

[Quwa]

Why didn't Pakistan get in on the development of the J-10 when China first conceived the program?

When J-10 was started it was top secret....

Thanks to the internet a lot of things leak when they shouldn't...China 'revealed' J-10 officially only 2-3 years back. Given this track record, only God knows what they are developing nowadays.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Why didn't Pakistan get in on the development of the J-10 when China first conceived the program?

J-10 started way back, before pakistan even could consider co-developing a fighter. besides, J-10 is a symbol of China's own handiwork. I don't think they would accept any help or cooperation in a project of this kind. it's a kind of a "national pride" issue.

for some reason, unfortunately, the chinese seem to disregard the JF-17. JF-17 is deemed a secondary project completed for the sake of cooperation between two countries.

what they don't seem to realize is that PAF pilots are behind the major design change of the aircraft. PAF pilots helped guide the design of the aircraft to meet their own needs, maneuverability being it's strong point.

i hope this answers it for you.

 

[Neo]

J-10 started way back, before pakistan even could consider co-developing a fighter. besides, J-10 is a symbol of China's own handiwork. I don't think they would accept any help or cooperation in a project of this kind. it's a kind of a "national pride" issue.

J-10 is based on the abandoned Lavi programme by Israeli's and for the obvious reasons it was kept secret, even from Pakistan because any Pakistani involvement would upset Israeli's cooperation and ToT to China before it was completed.

for some reason, unfortunately, the chinese seem to disregard the JF-17. JF-17 is deemed a secondary project completed for the sake of cooperation between two countries.

Its no longer true, yes the FC-1 was initially designed to meet PAF's demand and for export purpose as medium technology and low maintenance combat fighter. But today FC-1/JF-17 has evolved into a matured platform, partly due to our input and 20+ years flying experience with F-16's and even Chinese engineers are impressed with its performance. A political decision to induct the FC-1 has become a practical one today.

what they don't seem to realize is that PAF pilots are behind the major design change of the aircraft. PAF pilots helped guide the design of the aircraft to meet their own needs, maneuverability being it's strong point.
i hope this answers it for you.

Oh they do realise that. I met the FC-1 engineering team in Paris Le Bourget in 2007, they were all lyric about the 50+ strong PAF engineering team thats based in Chendu and working 24/7 on the project, some even speak fluent Chinese!!
PAF team is working on the concept according to its ASR and using Chinese manufacturing expertise to materialise it. Some of the changes and upgrades suggested and applied by PAF on JF-17 engineers were also integrated in FC-1.
FC-1/JF-17 is a true 50:50 JV with growing interest in both China and Pakistan.

 

[fatman17]

Neo - u r right but there are no plans as yet to induct FC-1/JF-17 in the PLAAF. the chinese are concentrating on the J-10 and the J-11B as part of their cutting-edge fighters.
FC-1 will be a export product and the chinese are very interested to capture this low-cost medium tech market.

 

[sodocpkgj]

yeh i met the team 2 in singapore. They had the flight simulator there.

 

[BATMAN]

Neo - u r right but there are no plans as yet to induct FC-1/JF-17 in the PLAAF. the chinese are concentrating on the J-10 and the J-11B as part of their cutting-edge fighters.
FC-1 will be a export product and the chinese are very interested to capture this low-cost medium tech market.

Indeed Chinese hands are full with J-10 and J-11B, both of those better suit to their applications.
I expect both fighters to develop simultaneously.

I think Thunder and Dragon both are multirole but thunder is better choice in interceptor/dog fight role where as Dragon is more suitable for strike role nad can be used in bomber role as well.

I don't think chinese would sell Dragon to any nation other than Pakistan due to the risk of its capabilities being known to adversarary.

 

[EagleEyes]

Neo - u r right but there are no plans as yet to induct FC-1/JF-17 in the PLAAF. the chinese are concentrating on the J-10 and the J-11B as part of their cutting-edge fighters.
FC-1 will be a export product and the chinese are very interested to capture this low-cost medium tech market.

Chinese should have 8 JF-17s. The production capability of 16 aircrafts per year is currently in China. We have received eight, and they have received eight. It was part of the plan.