PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[sancho]

f-16 IN and Gripen NG are way more advanced than the j-10b in terms of avionics, radar, maintenance costs, and reliability.

How can you tell, cause there is not much known about which avionics and radar it will get apart of the rumors I talked about before. Also even Gripen NGs radar is only under development, nobody can say at the moment how good it will be.
And if you are talking about costs, there should be no doubt about that J10 will be much cheaper (Gripen NG offer to Dutch $~70 million systemprice each).

mig-35 with its tvc and high t/w ratio would fly circles around the j-10 not to mention more powerful electronics.

Again how can you be so sure about that? Mig 35 will have 2 x RD 33 MK with 90 Kn thrust, but there is no reliable statement of it's weigth and payload because it's only a prototype yet. J10b is also under development, but with one AL 31 engine it should have a good t/w ratio and as I said, TVC could be on offer for that aircraft to.

if the lca recieves the 100 kn engine, aesa radar, and the eurojet offer for tvc is followed through it'll be superior to the j-10b and jf-17 not only in terms of avionics but also in terms of maneuverability

Likely compared to JF 17, but not to J10, because it still will have more thrust, maybe tvc and canards.

A much needed voice of reason. Thank you sir. I won't say the J-10B gives us an edge over the IAF (qualitatively), but it definitely gives them something to think about, which is more than enough to prevent wars.

I wouldn't say it either, cause too much of it's capabilities are unknown and the advantage of quantity should clearly remain on IAF side. But as you said it gives something to think about, because imo it comes close to some of MMRCA aerodynamically.

 

[SBD-3]

pakistan will have their own-made F-20 line someday,worry about your LCA ,pakitan's JF-17 line is already working now,and we will give them j-10 or j-11 first without talking about money if it's necessary,that's what brother country means,china is in danger if pakistan is in danger

1st of all my deep regards for such a brotherful response

2ndly
well what can i say about LCA looking at its "successful" history i have suggested 2 beautiful names
1) LCA (Long and Cumbersom Adventure)
2) LCA (Cant post here hehehe not allowed)
any ways while talking about IAF superiority we should also keep in mind that incase IAF makes an agression PAF will have
1)extensive SAM network with different missiles like FT-2000 Sams known as AWACS killers
2)8! Aewacs to gat servaillence as compared to 3
3)home territory advantage
4)Pairing ACs Skybolts,Thunders and vanaguards working togather and perhayps F-16s as well
so match is evenly poised

 

[sancho]

Dear, PAF will get 36 J-10B in 2010-11. At that time there will be no MRCA .................126 MRCA order will take atleast 8 to 9 years to get in IAF. Till then PAF will be more modernised.

So far, I think 126 MRCA deal is imaginary.....as discussion have been going since 2004 (When I first time heard abt MRCA deal).

At the moment PAF is taking J-10B for MKI.

PAF 2015 plan.

Chengdu FC-20 Total 36 Multi-role
Lockheed Martin F-16 C/D block 52+ Total 18 Multi-role
Lockheed Martin F-16AM/BM Total 46 Multi-role
Lockheed Martin F-16 Used Total 26 Multi-role
PAC JF-17 Thunder Total 250 Multi-role
Chengdu F-7PG/T Skybolt-G Total 55 Interceptor
Dassault Mirage ROSE (PAF/PN) Total 60 Strike
___________________________

IAF 2015 plan.

MiG-27 Total 100
MiG-29 Fulcrum Total 56 .
Sukhoi Su-30MKI Flanker-H Total 229 (1 Su-30 MKI has been lost to attrition).

Dassault Mirage 2000 Total 40
SEPECAT Jaguar France Total 110
HAL Tejas Total 50 (If serial production starts in 2010).

Some corrections:

From JF17 thread:

Originally Posted by SSGPA1
What is the capacity like?
I heard that initially we will make 4-6 and then later on that capcity will increase to 8-10 AC each yr.
Answerd by Mean_bird
Around 6 this year and the capacity will reach 25/yr when production peaks (probably by 2011).

Even if production could peak at 25 a year in 2011, there will be only around 150 by 2015

From J10 thread:

Article posted by Youdiedz
While there were rumors of the PAF receiving its first J-10s as early as 2009, the purchase has been delayed to 2014/2015.

So at the same time when MMRCA will arrive in IAF

First MMRCA squad produced by winning country is planed for induction in 2014. LCA mk1 production will start next year, but only 40 are on order and you forgot around 100 Mig 21 Bisons that will serve till 2020.

 

[maverick2009]

MZUBAIR PAF is not receving 36 J10B in 2010-2011. This topic was discussed to death the Chinease J10 is coming to PAF in 2015 as per ACM of Pakistan.

See earlier post.

Ask yourself why is it that PAF was offered 36 F16 blk 52 BUT CHOSE ONLY 18

Why have PAF only ordered 36 J10 or indeed 42 JF17..

Where as india orders 190 mki and follows on another 40.

Will order 126 mrca and follows on with another 74 prehaps.

The reason is $$$$$

PAF biggest stumbliing block to acheving even near parity to IAF is financial constraints/hardship.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Some corrections:

From JF17 thread:

Even if production could peak at 25 a year in 2011, there will be only around 150 by 2015

Dear,
PAC is not the only production industry for PAF. China is also producing them for PAF. This year Pakistan is geting 42 Jf-17 from China, dealed signed on 7th March.

For your reference, There are many reference websites, but I am refering Indian web site. so you can believe.

42 JF-17 will be peoduced by China this year (signed in March)

Pakistan have already 8 JF-17.

PAC started production of JF-17 on 30th June 2006.
PAC will produce 6 JF-17 this year. By 2011, the production will rise to 16 and from 2012 it will be 25 per year.

So, you can count.

JF-17
Year 2010.
8 (already have) + 42 (From China) + 6 (PAC will produce)
Total Could be = 56

1st Sqd will be up this year......usually Sqd have 30 + crafts......and its announced in March that PAF will be equiped Peshawar Air base with JF-17 in the end of this year.

Year 2011.
PAC will produce 16 and Pakistan might order few more from China.
Total could reach = 70 - 80

Year 2012.
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 100+

Year 2013.
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 120+

Year 2013.
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 150+

Year 2014.
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 175+

Year 2015.
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 200+

(May be PAF will order more 40 to 50 from China in 2012,2013,2014,205).

I hope you have no comments abt quantity now.
Where as quality will also be improved within these 5 years.

From J10 thread:

So at the same time when MMRCA will arrive in IAF

First MMRCA squad produced by winning country is planed for induction in 2014. LCA mk1 production will start next year, but only 40 are on order and you forgot around 100 Mig 21 Bisons that will serve till 2020.

May be PAF will get J-10B in 2014 but they will surely get them b4 2015.......whereas....its impossible to get 126 MRCA b4 2015 , IAF yet to descide which to buy with which features.

Dear I read abt Mig-21 that IAF is retiring them in 2011. Any ways if IAF even keeps them, then there wouldnt be a big difference.

 

[MZUBAIR]

MZUBAIR PAF is not receving 36 J10B in 2010-2011. This topic was discussed to death the Chinease J10 is coming to PAF in 2015 as per ACM of Pakistan.
[QUOTE/]

Oh man, u always make me fire......some day Mods will ban me.
Even PAF get J-10B in 2015, it wouldnt be a matter coz I have wrote abt the PAF proposed 2015 plan (It can be modified).

See earlier post.

Ask yourself why is it that PAF was offered 36 F16 blk 52 BUT CHOSE ONLY 18

Oh man, where u live ....dont think so negative.....ur making me hard.
PAF went for 18 only coz we needed money for those who suffered in Earth quake.........we have still option to buy more ......Pakistan think abt their people .......GoP dont let their poor suffered people to sleep on roads.

Besides that money was also used for other projects.

Why have PAF only ordered 36 J10 or indeed 42 JF17..

Because J-10 was on evaluation, Now J-10 B is proposed and PAF is looking for that.
Hopefully GoP will buy 15 to 20 more.

Where as india orders 190 mki and follows on another 40.

I m not comparing with MKI. JF-17 will be enough for that.....please move to other thread JF-17 vs MKI

Will order 126 mrca and follows on with another 74 prehaps.

The reason is $$$$$

PAF biggest stumbliing block to acheving even near parity to IAF is financial constraints/hardship.

So, far u havent signed any deal......first sign the deal then talk abt 126 MRCA....

 

[Arsalan]

So, far u havent signed any deal......first sign the deal then talk abt 126 MRCA....

havent signed a deal
brother they are not even clear that for which plane they should go for and even the evaluation of all the contenders have sopped before it finished! it has been quite for some time now but i do not dare to say that the deal may go down the sink!!

when our U214 deal hit silience for some time they say that it have been dumped but when there MRCA go silience it is there stealth mode!!!

regards!

 

[SBD-3]

i see indians chanting "Drop LCA for MRCA, Drop Pak Fa for MCA"
hay guys it seems pretty strange that India is looking at 3 5th generation platforms, 1 MCA 2 PAK-FA 3 FG-FA what could be the reason? i mean is it that IAF is not sure about their success and wants "to hit more darts to have a bullseye"?

 

[Jako]

i see indians chanting "Drop LCA for MRCA, Drop Pak Fa for MCA"
hay guys it seems pretty strange that India is looking at 3 5th generation platforms, 1 MCA 2 PAK-FA 3 FG-FA what could be the reason? i mean is it that IAF is not sure about their success and wants "to hit more darts to have a bullseye"?

the post above shows your lack of knowledge on the issue............fgfa is actually the two sitter version of pak-fa,which india is acquiring......fgfa is custom made for india......

 

[PAFAce]

SFirst MMRCA squad produced by winning country is planed for induction in 2014. LCA mk1 production will start next year, but only 40 are on order and you forgot around 100 Mig 21 Bisons that will serve till 2020.

The MMRCA contest winner will be announced in 2013/2014 according to Aviation Weekly. Therefore, I'm guessing that deliveries will probabl begin 2015 onwards. As for the LCA, you're right about Mk.1, but the primary focus will be on Mk.2, which is still very much in the design phase. In fact, they're talking about a new engine and AESA radars for it, and are speaking with Italian and French companies.

fgfa is actually the two sitter version of pak-fa,which india is acquiring......fgfa is custom made for india......

Correct Jako. India's best bet for a true next-gen capability, and it will definitely be a headache for us in a few years time. MCA, well, I'm not so sure about that. If I were an Indian tax-payer, I'd definitely ask more questions about the LCA and MCA programs and their feasibility.

Getting back to the topic of this debate
I still believe that if PAF can build a solid back-bone of JF-17s, and then acquire a handsome number of FC-20s and F-16s for the power punch, we will have a decent counter to any Indian aerial threat, keeping in mind our strategy and past experiences. According to IAF Chief of Air Staff FH Major, the quantitative gap with respect to Pakistan won't get much bigger by 2020 (39 IAF Squadrons), therefore, if we beef up our quantity without sacrificing quality, we'll be able to achieve a good match without having to spend like the Indians.

In a few years time, when the FGFA and/or the MCA are a reality, we'll need to upgrade, but by then we'll hopefully be in a better position and there will be more available to us. Inducting a squadron or two of J-11s or another hi-tech fighter, at the expense of 4 or 5 squadrons of cheaper but marginally less potent fighters, will add more hassle than good, in my opinion.

In short, we should stick to what we do best and just increase the numbers. Fortune favours the brave, but the wise make their own fortune.

 

[BSF]

I never called Jf 17 Vanilla model, it was Keysersoze
SUPER MODERATORS here

Dude do you think at all? In the event of a J-11 procurement do you think that the PAf would just take the vanilla model? They didn't with the J-7 j-10 so why would they with the J-11?

I was just replying to him in that sense.

 

[SBD-3]

Correct Jako. India's best bet for a true next-gen capability, and it will definitely be a headache for us in a few years time. MCA, well, I'm not so sure about that. If I were an Indian tax-payer, I'd definitely ask more questions about the LCA and MCA programs and their feasibility.

Getting back to the topic of this debate
I still believe that if PAF can build a solid back-bone of JF-17s, and then acquire a handsome number of FC-20s and F-16s for the power punch, we will have a decent counter to any Indian aerial threat, keeping in mind our strategy and past experiences. According to IAF Chief of Air Staff FH Major, the quantitative gap with respect to Pakistan won't get much bigger by 2020 (39 IAF Squadrons), therefore, if we beef up our quantity without sacrificing quality, we'll be able to achieve a good match without having to spend like the Indians.

In a few years time, when the FGFA and/or the MCA are a reality, we'll need to upgrade, but by then we'll hopefully be in a better position and there will be more available to us. Inducting a squadron or two of J-11s or another hi-tech fighter, at the expense of 4 or 5 squadrons of cheaper but marginally less potent fighters, will add more hassle than good, in my opinion.

In short, we should stick to what we do best and just increase the numbers. Fortune favours the brave, but the wise make their own fortune.

Well PAF is fully aware of that and would definatly hav some plans in mind as well dont worry
Many people argue that future is with stealth ACs.But to me the future still belongs to manuverable,Agile and competent ACs.Do you really expect the world to be sitting Idle while Stealth ACs patrolling the skies freely?
Trust me its not long that we start hearing about the developments of Stealth finding radars as the stealthy birds take to sky.Kolchuga is one example where the Ukranians claiming that it is capable of detecting Stealth ACs like Raptors.If stealth is compromised then one only needs a good pilot and a good plane thats it
We should not be tempted instead keep enhancing FC-20 and JF-17 and a possible J-11 acquisition is a real threat is posed by IAF

 

[sancho]

Dear,
PAC is not the only production industry for PAF. China is also producing them for PAF. This year Pakistan is geting 42 Jf-17 from China, dealed signed on 7th March.

For your reference, There are many reference websites, but I am refering Indian web site. so you can believe.

That's right I forgot about them.

1st Sqd will be up this year......usually Sqd have 30 + crafts......and its announced in March that PAF will be equiped Peshawar Air base with JF-17 in the end of this year.
30+? 8 are there + 6 will be produced this year, that's 14 a squad right?

May be PAF will get J-10B in 2014 but they will surely get them b4 2015.......whereas....its impossible to get 126 MRCA b4 2015 , IAF yet to descide which to buy with which features.

Nobody said that there will be 126 of them, but the first squad (18 in IAF) for sure and J10 are facing the same decision at the moment, cause no radar and engine is cleared.

Dear I read abt Mig-21 that IAF is retiring them in 2011. Any ways if IAF even keeps them, then there wouldnt be a big difference.

IAF will retire around 150 Mig 21 (M/MF and Bis), but the Bisons are upgraded versions, they will serve longer and to have 100 more aircrafts or not does make a difference.

 

[sancho]

The MMRCA contest winner will be announced in 2013/2014 according to Aviation Weekly. Therefore, I'm guessing that deliveries will probabl begin 2015 onwards. As for the LCA, you're right about Mk.1, but the primary focus will be on Mk.2, which is still very much in the design phase. In fact, they're talking about a new engine and AESA radars for it, and are speaking with Italian and French companies.

I think that info is wrong, cause the trials will start between this and next month and a decision will be announced at the end of 2010, or beginning 2011. Production in India will start around 2014 but in the meantime the first squad will be in production outside of India.

Getting back to the topic of this debate
I still believe that if PAF can build a solid back-bone of JF-17s, and then acquire a handsome number of FC-20s and F-16s for the power punch, we will have a decent counter to any Indian aerial threat, keeping in mind our strategy and past experiences. According to IAF Chief of Air Staff FH Major, the quantitative gap with respect to Pakistan won't get much bigger by 2020 (39 IAF Squadrons), therefore, if we beef up our quantity without sacrificing quality, we'll be able to achieve a good match without having to spend like the Indians.

A solid backbone yes, but but only at the lower end of PAF! You must admit that it won't be as good as J10 or F16 block 52 and these will be the quality fighters of PAF. The quantitative edge might be reduced a bit, but with MKI, MMRCA and already inducted AWACS and in development 5. gen fighter the qualitatively edge will stay clearly on IAF side.
IMO PAF is counting on the wrong aircraft and should build numbers of J10 instead of JF17.

 

[blain2]

A bird in hand is better than two in the bush. One can always think high and mighty about things to come. PAF must stick with JF-17. It is a great aircraft that will be very current for the region in which it will operate. The cost to maintain, equip and fly it would be much more reasonable than a larger aircraft such as J-10.

Secondly, IAF is no where close to a fifth gen aircraft. In the absence of such, the currently envisaged combination of JF-17, F-16s, upgraded Mirages and FC-20s will do just fine.