PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

[Indus Falcon]

See Oscars first post on the topic. I started writing on the subject and left my post half done as he had provided all the information. It will give you the chronology of the events with regards to the M2K saga. On this forum we had the very man who was the defence secretary to Benazir who explained the whole saga HIMSELF. No body denies that the M2K was a good plane. It was just a really bad set of circumstances which led us down the route of not buying the aircraft. The set of circumstances stem from Benazir@s office sitting on the file for 3 months, Zardari demanding 10 million $ per plane to be added to the price, the French retracting the offer on representing it which I have alluded to and later on pushing the Rafale up our noses when we wanted 58 ex French m2k5s(as Oscar has alluded to). You can yell all you like but you have to accept that the will was always there , we just did not get the chance. For what it was worth the IAF had already procured the M2ks so our buying in the late 90s or early 2000s would not have made a difference. My problem stems from the fact that once you answer a question logically you get nothing other than personal insults from Mastan Khan. This is not the way i am used to dealing with others when debating on the forum.
Araz

I wouldn't yell at someone I respect i.e. you. Disagree, sure! I disagree with my elders, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them.

Yes I have heard of the mirage saga. But the issue really isn't benazir or zardari. The issue is why didn't the then COAS Gen Aslam Baig, take a stand, like Gen Shareef did, with the Jordanian F16's? Even going to the extent of calling Dar to GHQ?

In my opinion, it was poor leadership etc. If the civilian leadership was corrupt, then why was the military leadership too afraid to take a stand?

Something of this magnitude should not have been left up to the corrupt civilian leadership. I got into a lot of trouble because of my hard hardheadedness, but Alhumdullilah, I always managed to get out with flying colors, to the extent that I was thrice promoted, just so that the job would be above my grade and the CO wouldn't have to deal with me anymore. When you stand by your oath, Allah helps you in ways one can only imagine!

Nonetheless, this is the past, but what have we learnt from it?

More importantly what I would like to know from you is, if an a/c, is readily available, and offers us nearly twice the capability of the JF-17, for a marginal price increase, why aren't we going for it? I do admit that a newer platform will have additional logistical issues.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

When @gambit speaks---it is like poetry---regardless of how I have pi-ssed him off in the past---.

@Indus Falcon

Here is an interesting read---if you have not read it before

The Real Military Threat from China: Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles | The National Interest


We have a 1000 miles long border with India---most is desert on their side and lesser on our side---and then there are the cities of Punjab---close to the border on both the sides---basically striking distance of standoff weapons and MRL's.

In Punjab both sides think that it would be a stalemate---and rajasthan and Thal desert is where india thinks that it can break thru and Pakistan thinks that is the perfect place for a cold start doctrine like strike to take the enemy land.

From the desert---india thinks that it can cut off Pakistan in two----. So what do we do now----we go the third border----the Arabian sea----the oceans----the fight over blue waters----the air sea battle.

As I have stated before---in a war---india will sacrifice Punjab because it does not hold any technical advantage over south india---south india is the jugular vein of Hindustan and the only way to reach south india is over the ocean---THE AIR SEA BATTLE.

The strengthening of the third border is going to make the difference----and for that you need heavy air superiority aircraft and you need heavy strike aircraft with long legs---OTHERWISE JUST FOLD UP ALL THE NUC WEAPONS---GIVE THEM AWAY AND TELL THE WORLD WE DON'T WANT WAR---JUST GIVE US PEACE----AND DISARM YOUR MILITARY.

I DON'T WANT PAKISTAN TO LIE UNDER THE THREAT OF A NUC STRIKE AND I DON'T WANT THE WORLD TO LIVE UNDER THE SAME EITHER.

Pakistan cannot hide under the threat of a mushroom cloud anymore----. It needs to and it has to find conventional means to counter the enemy. The conventional means are a stronger air force---the aircraft that are suited well for the arena---aircraft that can fly long distance---carry a heavy load---are technically well equipped---can defend themselves.

For that you have to have aircraft that will give sea denial to enemy ships and aircraft and take them on farther out in the ocean.

Just remember---Argentina had only 5 Exocet anti ship missiles---and as the link asks---what if they had 50----!

Pakistan has the C802---it just got the CM400AKG the YJ12---gives it a range of 150---250 KM strike range----. Off course the enemy would also have air cover---but the thing is---if it floats on the water---it will become a target---regardless---.

The Pakistan air force has been running in the same gear for the 30 + years-----and there is nobody to confront it---. Looking at just the reaction on this board---there is God up in heavens and then there is Pakistan air force on the ground.

It needs to be shaken up and its priorities re-adjusted that----Pakistan does not work for Pakistan air force---but Pakistan air force works for Pakistan.

Since the onset of domination by the fighter mafia in Pakistan air force---the mantra has become light and nimble---the problem with this mindset is that it does not have a single asset of the capabilities of the heavy aircraft of the enemy.

In the 1965 and 71 war---when it did well----it was opposing similar aircraft---and if india had mig 21---it had Mirages as well.

Lack of funds is just an excuse---the problem is with the mindset---. If there are no funds then the Air Chief and his team need to offer their resignations---. They need to quit their jobs if they cannot do it right----.

 

[gambit]

That being said, American air power is a wholly different concept as to that of say a nation like Pakistan. Perhaps a better example would be to look at the East German or Swedish model.

I do not think so.

At the risk of sounding like a biased Air Force guy instead of being objective, I believe the current US conceptualization of airpower is applicable to all countries and situations if we are to look at how the military in general, and airpower in specific, influences foreign policies.

Take the hostile attitudes between Iran and Israel, for example. What would the foreign policies of both countries be if Iran does not have an air force ? Some may argue that since Iranian airpower is too limited in reach, Iran needs Iraq in order to be of any significant military threat to Israel.

But 'Iran needs Iraq' is precisely the point. Need Iraq in what ways and for how long ?

Airpower or the lack thereof in some capabilities swayed Iran-Israel inter-states relations. The Iranian navy cannot provide the type of airpower projection necessary to threaten Israel, that leave the Iranian land forces and political maneuverings to secure land basing for that goal.

Speculate that Iraqi airpower is nonexistent and Iranian airpower is fully capable of taking control of Iraqi airspace and provides air refueling capability to Iranian fighters ? The possibility of Iranian airpower attacking Israeli targets in matters of hours and most likely at unknown schedules will create a different Israel-Iran foreign policy. Likewise, there would be a different Iran-Israel foreign policy, a different Israel-Iraq foreign policy, a different Iran-Iraq foreign policy, and the US would have a different foreign policy for each of these players.

 

[SQ8]

I do not think so.

At the risk of sounding like a biased Air Force guy instead of being objective, I believe the current US conceptualization of airpower is applicable to all countries and situations if we are to look at how the military in general, and airpower in specific, influences foreign policies.

Take the hostile attitudes between Iran and Israel, for example. What would the foreign policies of both countries be if Iran does not have an air force ? Some may argue that since Iranian airpower is too limited in reach, Iran needs Iraq in order to be of any significant military threat to Israel.

But 'Iran needs Iraq' is precisely the point. Need Iraq in what ways and for how long ?

Airpower or the lack thereof in some capabilities swayed Iran-Israel inter-states relations. The Iranian navy cannot provide the type of airpower projection necessary to threaten Israel, that leave the Iranian land forces and political maneuverings to secure land basing for that goal.

Speculate that Iraqi airpower is nonexistent and Iranian airpower is fully capable of taking control of Iraqi airspace and provides air refueling capability to Iranian fighters ? The possibility of Iranian airpower attacking Israeli targets in matters of hours and most likely at unknown schedules will create a different Israel-Iran foreign policy. Likewise, there would be a different Iran-Israel foreign policy, a different Israel-Iraq foreign policy, a different Iran-Iraq foreign policy, and the US would have a different foreign policy for each of these players.

I do not debate the use of airpower as an offensive tool , but rather the means and applications of that offensive capability. The Iranian ORBAT (and their ability to develop it) forces a means of thinking in their offensive capability vis-a-vis Israel and its capability.
A better example would be the tactics and offensive/defensive operations undertaken by the deployment of the 366th wing(with support assets) into Ukraine against a Russian invasion?

 

[araz]

I wouldn't yell at someone I respect i.e. you. Disagree, sure! I disagree with my elders, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them.

Yes I have heard of the mirage saga. But the issue really isn't benazir or zardari. The issue is why didn't the then COAS Gen Aslam Baig, take a stand, like Gen Shareef did, with the Jordanian F16's? Even going to the extent of calling Dar to GHQ?

In my opinion, it was poor leadership etc. If the civilian leadership was corrupt, then why was the military leadership too afraid to take a stand?

Something of this magnitude should not have been left up to the corrupt civilian leadership. I got into a lot of trouble because of my hard hardheadedness, but Alhumdullilah, I always managed to get out with flying colors, to the extent that I was thrice promoted, just so that the job would be above my grade and the CO wouldn't have to deal with me anymore. When you stand by your oath, Allah helps you in ways one can only imagine!

Nonetheless, this is the past, but what have we learnt from it?

More importantly what I would like to know from you is, if an a/c, is readily available, and offers us nearly twice the capability of the JF-17, for a marginal price increase, why aren't we going for it? I do admit that a newer platform will have additional logistical issues.

Indus falcon.
Iwas not specifically referring to you when I said" you can yell all you like". It is ammetaphorical statement to say "one can do whatever."
As to the politics of the time you need to remember that this was post Zia era. The army was demoralised and Benazir ruled from a morally high position backed by the US.The army of that time did not want to rock the boat of the political government and therefore strategically it was better to take the back seat. The situation changed drastically as the public opinion changed against Benazir. The army supported GIK but did not come to the fore. So in short it was not the right time for the army to pressurise the government.
As mentioned earlier the french were equally complicit in this plot to fleece Pakistan. When the same offer was accepted 90 days after the fall of Benazir Government, it was rejected by the french.
So in short it was a dificult and unfortunate situation.
Araz

 

[Super Falcon]

Paf has to buy stop gap fighter jet with threats from india we are low in jers and quality

 

[TaimiKhan]

See Oscars first post on the topic. I started writing on the subject and left my post half done as he had provided all the information. It will give you the chronology of the events with regards to the M2K saga. On this forum we had the very man who was the defence secretary to Benazir who explained the whole saga HIMSELF. No body denies that the M2K was a good plane. It was just a really bad set of circumstances which led us down the route of not buying the aircraft. The set of circumstances stem from Benazir@s office sitting on the file for 3 months, Zardari demanding 10 million $ per plane to be added to the price, the French retracting the offer on representing it which I have alluded to and later on pushing the Rafale up our noses when we wanted 58 ex French m2k5s(as Oscar has alluded to). You can yell all you like but you have to accept that the will was always there , we just did not get the chance. For what it was worth the IAF had already procured the M2ks so our buying in the late 90s or early 2000s would not have made a difference. My problem stems from the fact that once you answer a question logically you get nothing other than personal insults from Mastan Khan. This is not the way i am used to dealing with others when debating on the forum.
Araz

Just to add in this Zardari saga, he did the same thing in the JF-17 deal. I hope you guys remember that the first batch was late due to the late signing of the loan agreement. He made something around 50-100$ Million in this deal as without his share he was not agreeing to the loan agreement. Just like before this time he was sitting on the file rather then his wife this time.

@TaimiKhan @MastanKhan @araz I feel had PAF should have gone for both the F16 and the M2K. Not just one type.

Funding - Was never an issue. Creative financing was. Heck we can't play our cards right now, playing it right, back then is asking for too much. The same people who helped us with our Nuclear program, could have bought for us 4 ~ 5 squadrons as well.

But our tunnel vision is a benchmark, can't abandon that can we?

I may not agree with a lot of things Mastan Khan Saheb has to say, but on the JH7B, he has a very valid point. +/-10% for the price of a JF-17, but nearly two times the capability, why aren't we going for it? Do keep in mind that IF the JH7B were to be bought, it would be a much better a/c than what it is today.

a) The JF-17's magical DSI

b) We don't have the funds.

c) Our egos (PA & PAF) are too big, to look at inducting a new platform?

Yaar JH-7 is a deep strike bomber. Its not a good dog fighter. Its design is based around the concept for a ground attack fighter. And then the question of it being dual engine, which if added in numbers will result in a huge infrastructure prb.

Its easy to say induct this and that, but its just that, practically lot of factors come into play.

 

[araz]

Just to add in this Zardari saga, he did the same thing in the JF-17 deal. I hope you guys remember that the first batch was late due to the late signing of the loan agreement. He made something around 50-100$ Million in this deal as without his share he was not agreeing to the loan agreement. Just like before this time he was sitting on the file rather then his wife this time.



Yaar JH-7 is a deep strike bomber. Its not a good dog fighter. Its design is based around the concept for a ground attack fighter. And then the question of it being dual engine, which if added in numbers will result in a huge infrastructure prb.

Its easy to say induct this and that, but its just that, practically lot of factors come into play.

Yes BUT!!!!! What is more than defence. The awam can go without food,clothes and electricity and eat grass but the armed forces should have arms to defend. The people who indulge kn this rant have no idea how precarious our financial position was and still is. Just because a few loans got cancelled and a few industries were sold everyone got on the band wagon of how good things were and how the coffers were full of money. Bhai it was just whoring up of the economy , putting a beautiful dress on a rotting decrepid and drug infested body. But try as you might we need to buy this and we should have bought that and why dont we buy those? The whole forum is full of unrealistic expectations from a weak economy and coffers relying on handouts from WB,AB and anyone elsexwho can give khairat. The country is relying on loans and 45% of your earnings go into repayments as per recent articles .

 

[Paksanity]

Yes BUT!!!!! What is more than defence. The awam can go without food,clothes and electricity and eat grass but the armed forces should have arms to defend. The people who indulge kn this rant have no idea how precarious our financial position was and still is. Just because a few loans got cancelled and a few industries were sold everyone got on the band wagon of how good things were and how the coffers were full of money. Bhai it was just whoring up of the economy , putting a beautiful dress on a rotting decrepid and drug infested body. But try as you might we need to buy this and we should have bought that and why dont we buy those? The whole forum is full of unrealistic expectations from a weak economy and coffers relying on handouts from WB,AB and anyone elsexwho can give khairat. The country is relying on loans and 45% of your earnings go into repayments as per recent articles .

No matter how much sense you talk on this forum, flights of fantasies will keep on denying realities. Just wanted you to know that some agree with you. Keep doing the good job.

 

[Cry.me.a.River]

Sir,

This thread is to dicuss Pakistan's capabilities and shortcomings----. So---please if you keep your remarks out of it----it would be appreciated.

Query/Comment of @Abingdonboy is relevant.

Both on this thread and another similar thread, you have been advocating induction of JH-7B instead of JF-17 for maritime strikes and deep strike role. When doing so, you are bound to provide reason as to what benefits a JH-7B would bring in term of survivability over JF-17. Assume you order JH-7B on fast track basis, by the time it would be delivered India would have two Aircraft carriers capable of carrying mix of 60 carrier borne Mig-29Ks and N-LCA between them (India finished construction work on its second Aircraft carrier in April this year and that carrier is undergoing weapons fit and would be ready by 2016 end/2017 beginning).

Any strike package of Pakistan Airforce via sea route would be facing at least 30 Mig-29K today (India has total of 45 Mig 29K but Vikramaditya could carry only 30 Mig-29.Rest 15 seem to be ordered to keep availability at 30 all time), and a mix of 70 Mig-29Ks and N-LCA in half a decade time. And if it is able to dodge them, that strike package would have to contend with two Squadrons of Su-30MKI based in Lohegaon just 80 Km away from Mumbai (Charged with job of defending Mumbai from Cruise missile and Air attacks) and a battery of S-300.

Faced with such an opponent, you need to justify as to how a dedicated BOMBER with limited self defence capability will survive a gauntlet of close to 100 Air-superiority fighters, destroyers (Kolkata class with 32 Barak-8) of Indian Navy, and one of the best SAM battery in existence and still deliver its bomb load. If anything, Indian carrier borne fighters and MKI's would receive a lumbering overloaded bomber with a "thank you PAF" note.

Just because you could load JH-7B with much more AShCMs and bombs that JF-17 does not mean anything, if it is flying into a turkey shoot. Faced with such an adversary as PAF would be facing, a multi role Aircraft like JF-17 would have better chance of survival, even if its range and payload are limited.

You cannot wiggle out of these questions by throwing lame lines that "This thread is to discuss Pakistan's capabilities and shortcomings----. So---please if you keep your remarks out of it-", because PAF bomber would be facing both IAF fighters and IN carrier borne fighters, thus making discussion of India's capability relevant to this and your other JH-7B thread. If you are willing to ignore Indian capabilities ,and are bent on evaluating Aircrafts only on basis of their Payload and range, then why not buy B-29 Bombers from junkyard. They have higher payload and Range than any modern day tactical bomber.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Just to add in this Zardari saga, he did the same thing in the JF-17 deal. I hope you guys remember that the first batch was late due to the late signing of the loan agreement. He made something around 50-100$ Million in this deal as without his share he was not agreeing to the loan agreement. Just like before this time he was sitting on the file rather then his wife this time.



Yaar JH-7 is a deep strike bomber. Its not a good dog fighter. Its design is based around the concept for a ground attack fighter. And then the question of it being dual engine, which if added in numbers will result in a huge infrastructure prb.

Its easy to say induct this and that, but its just that, practically lot of factors come into play.

To be honest I think the $50m~ $100m might be on the lower side, knowing the sub-animal he is.

Secondly, JH7B. Yes it's a twin engine aircraft. Yes twin engine aircraft means more maintenance / logistical headaches. But if we were to go for a deep strike platform, we will have to go for a twin engine a/c, be it the JH7B or any other. How long are we going to bury our head in the sand.

Yes BUT!!!!! What is more than defence. The awam can go without food,clothes and electricity and eat grass but the armed forces should have arms to defend. The people who indulge kn this rant have no idea how precarious our financial position was and still is. Just because a few loans got cancelled and a few industries were sold everyone got on the band wagon of how good things were and how the coffers were full of money. Bhai it was just whoring up of the economy , putting a beautiful dress on a rotting decrepid and drug infested body. But try as you might we need to buy this and we should have bought that and why dont we buy those? The whole forum is full of unrealistic expectations from a weak economy and coffers relying on handouts from WB,AB and anyone elsexwho can give khairat. The country is relying on loans and 45% of your earnings go into repayments as per recent articles .

I think you have missed Mastan Sahab and my comment, that had we played our cards right, we could have gotten a lot of hardware free or at discounted rates.

Secondly, unless there is accountability across the board, neither will people pay taxes, nor will the economy improve.

Thirdly, the stolen taxpayers money, deposited abroad, needs to be brought back.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Yes BUT!!!!! What is more than defence. The awam can go without food,clothes and electricity and eat grass but the armed forces should have arms to defend. The people who indulge kn this rant have no idea how precarious our financial position was and still is. Just because a few loans got cancelled and a few industries were sold everyone got on the band wagon of how good things were and how the coffers were full of money. Bhai it was just whoring up of the economy , putting a beautiful dress on a rotting decrepid and drug infested body. But try as you might we need to buy this and we should have bought that and why dont we buy those? The whole forum is full of unrealistic expectations from a weak economy and coffers relying on handouts from WB,AB and anyone elsexwho can give khairat. The country is relying on loans and 45% of your earnings go into repayments as per recent articles .

A very realistic and logical view.

War-fighting capability is much less about military hard-ware and much more about economic muscle.
One should be able to afford to own and operate the hardware. The khairati or donation syndrome does not take care of that vital necessity.

 

[araz]

To be honest I think the $50m~ $100m might be on the lower side, knowing the sub-animal he is.

Secondly, JH7B. Yes it's a twin engine aircraft. Yes twin engine aircraft means more maintenance / logistical headaches. But if we were to go for a deep strike platform, we will have to go for a twin engine a/c, be it the JH7B or any other. How long are we going to bury our head in the sand.



I think you have missed Mastan Sahab and my comment, that had we played our cards right, we could have gotten a lot of hardware free or at discounted rates.

Secondly, unless there is accountability across the board, neither will people pay taxes, nor will the economy improve.

Thirdly, the stolen taxpayers money, deposited abroad, needs to be brought back.

Bhai
I dont miss posts. The oppress to respond to the post just did not occur as the post was outside the scope of our current discussion. Regarding free lunches I need not remind you there is no free lunch. There is always a price to pay . You may not see it just yet but there is a price.
Regarding the Yemen crisis do you think we did not play our cards right. I think for once we handled our cards in a commendable way. A "NO" on the surface, an outcry from the Middle East and your COAS, PM and some people who will forever remain in the dark visit the Saudis. Suddenly there is no mention of Pakistan at all. The people are sure that the army is not involved as the Parlianment said so. So no retaliation from the ISIS goons while quietly in the background some cogs are moving---------. Brilliant. Just bloody marvellous.. Do you need me to tell you more?
But the reality of the war in the sub continent is lost on most people in Pakistan. It is no longer tank vs tank plane vs plane and man vs man. It is economics. Smell the coffee people. Why do you think we have blasts every now and then why does our e onomy keep taking nose dives. If you progress economically you escape the clutches of the powers that be and it will take that much more mulas to counter that. So easy..... make the bastards suffer blasts every few days and lose the confidence of investors so they go next door!!!? And we didnt even know and we have lost already.....
This is where the game is, this is what is on the table, this is why we have prospective PMs assasinated and stooges installed in place.
Another aspect that I want you to look at things from, is a comparative analysis of what happens if you buy 2 squadrons of SU35s or J31or even battlestar galactica for arguments sake. Now what do you think your enemy will do. Work on the premise that their population is 5-6 times yours and buying power is 7 times more. So work out what happens next. So you counter that by buying more. But they can buy buy 7 times more than you. Work it through to extreme and see what you come up with. You will realize that till your GDP rises to match theirs or a high percentile of theirs you are doomed.
Now you and your mastan saheb want to have mental fancies please feel free to do so I am out of here...And believe me if he is so great ask him to respond to this post in a logical coharent manner backed up by some proof and we can talk once you achieve your ends.
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

Query/Comment of @Abingdonboy is relevant.

Both on this thread and another similar thread, you have been advocating induction of JH-7B instead of JF-17 for maritime strikes and deep strike role. When doing so, you are bound to provide reason as to what benefits a JH-7B would bring in term of survivability over JF-17. Assume you order JH-7B on fast track basis, by the time it would be delivered India would have two Aircraft carriers capable of carrying mix of 60 carrier borne Mig-29Ks and N-LCA between them (India finished construction work on its second Aircraft carrier in April this year and that carrier is undergoing weapons fit and would be ready by 2016 end/2017 beginning).

Any strike package of Pakistan Airforce via sea route would be facing at least 30 Mig-29K today (India has total of 45 Mig 29K but Vikramaditya could carry only 30 Mig-29.Rest 15 seem to be ordered to keep availability at 30 all time), and a mix of 70 Mig-29Ks and N-LCA in half a decade time. And if it is able to dodge them, that strike package would have to contend with two Squadrons of Su-30MKI based in Lohegaon just 80 Km away from Mumbai (Charged with job of defending Mumbai from Cruise missile and Air attacks) and a battery of S-300.

Faced with such an opponent, you need to justify as to how a dedicated BOMBER with limited self defence capability will survive a gauntlet of close to 100 Air-superiority fighters, destroyers (Kolkata class with 32 Barak-8) of Indian Navy, and one of the best SAM battery in existence and still deliver its bomb load. If anything, Indian carrier borne fighters and MKI's would receive a lumbering overloaded bomber with a "thank you PAF" note.

Just because you could load JH-7B with much more AShCMs and bombs that JF-17 does not mean anything, if it is flying into a turkey shoot. Faced with such an adversary as PAF would be facing, a multi role Aircraft like JF-17 would have better chance of survival, even if its range and payload are limited.

You cannot wiggle out of these questions by throwing lame lines that "This thread is to discuss Pakistan's capabilities and shortcomings----. So---please if you keep your remarks out of it-", because PAF bomber would be facing both IAF fighters and IN carrier borne fighters, thus making discussion of India's capability relevant to this and your other JH-7B thread. If you are willing to ignore Indian capabilities ,and are bent on evaluating Aircrafts only on basis of their Payload and range, then why not buy B-29 Bombers from junkyard. They have higher payload and Range than any modern day tactical bomber.

Hi,

Okay---if that is how you think about the scenario---that is fine with me.

 

[MastanKhan]

Now you and your mastan saheb want to have mental fancies please feel free to do so I am out of here...And believe me if he is so great ask him to respond to this post in a logical coharent manner backed up by some proof and we can talk once you achieve your ends.
Araz

Sir,

Address me directly---. Talk strategy---game plan execution----and technical issues----otherwise stop the BS.

Your post---it has no head or tail----it has no beginning----no sequence to it.