PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[SherdiL!]

most of the Indians still living the dream hum ! IAF has never had air supriority against Pakistan 65,71 proves that and they always had and have been equipped with better materials mate.

 

[Patriot]

it doesnt mean F16s will be flying hugging the terrain, if you below a certain ceiling, then it the radar cant distinguish the f16 from other sources. It doesnt mean F16s will be dodging autorickshaws!!

Exactly.I was watching documentry on Discovery Channel and they showed Israeli pilots dodging Egypt heat seeking missiles by flying extremely low so missile was unable to determine where is the real aircraft.

 

[valkyr]

That maybe true but i tell you the pilot i was talking to definitely knew his stuff. I was particularly concerned about the MKI and i asked him and he wasnt really worried about the MKI at all. He told me that when our aircrafts fly low, the ground clutter disrupts the BVR missile seekers of the MKI. When our aircrafts shoot up their IR seekers can get a clear lock on the huge radar cross section of MKI's. This is just one tactic and it looks very effective to me; he told me that there were many other tactics that PAF has also developed.

Notorious while what you say is perfect sense and true, the main point I want you to kindly try and clarify is this :

1. With the introduction of the new Phalcons in addition to A-50s into IAF, there shall not be an instance when the Pakistani Airspace is not under complete observation and as such as soon as an AC will take off, its position, make and heading shall be noted and duly passed on to the IAF ACs in CAP or in Sorties on mission. How, then, does this technique help you when your coordinates will be given before and hand and all one IAF pilot has to do is to use them in BVR role?

2. The permissive ability of a SU-30 MKI to act as a mini-AWACS with ability of 350 km search range in forward hemisphere with tracking in at 200 kms range and 60 km posterior hemisphere, ability to track 15 threats and engage 6 most immediate and also ability to track tanks from 50-60 kms also makes things slightly if not the least difficult for easily dismissive and offhandedness over ability to "hide" and evade BVR with full confidence ..... any ideas what possible methods maybe employed here?

3. Yes the electronic signals do get fudged but due to the extensive urbanisation of subcontinent and highr densities in Indian sides, am sure Indian pilots have learnt to discern threats even in such backdrops as must have the Pakistani fighter pilots. afterall they are professionals and know what they face. So does it not render the whole thing on precarious grounds? Could it be that the PAF pilot you were speaking to was just easing out your worries?

 

[notorious_eagle]

Very true, infact my source has admitted that he and his buddies were sort of 'jolted awake' during the briefing on PAF tactics by the israeli pilots. He says he had never thought that the pakis could think up such radically different stuff.

He adds that the course ended on a very hilarious note when one of the israeli pilots recited the below joke ( in fluent Punjabi ! ??):

"What the Pakistanis know, the arabs know. What the arabs know, the israelis know. What the israelis know, the americans know. And what the Americans know, George Bush shares with the rest of the world!"

Cant stop laughing after reading this; but since now we all know this tactic i am sure PAF will develop something new .

 

[x_man]

Exactly.I was watching documentry on Discovery Channel and they showed Israeli pilots dodging Egypt heat seeking missiles by flying extremely low so missile was unable to determine where is the real aircraft.

The IR missiles have lot of shortcomings….While ground also being heated, generates a good amount of IR and the missile can be mislead into. Similarly, another tactic was to put your aircrafts nose towards the sun and then make a break to spoof the seeker of an IR missile…..lots of interesting stuff….

With modern AI radars accompanied with force multipliers like AWACS and other EW elements, flying nap of the earth will not give you that advantage as one had during earlier conflicts…..

 

[valkyr]

it doesnt mean F16s will be flying hugging the terrain, if you below a certain ceiling, then it the radar cant distinguish the f16 from other sources. It doesnt mean F16s will be dodging autorickshaws!!

dear ..... read the post ... he says amongst buildings literally

anyways it was in lighter vein ..... but the fact is that those days of being able to hide in "ground clutter" have gone with IR imagers and thermal sensors being able to discern b/w AC and ground clutter. the fact that software and hardware upgradation along with innovative tech being mated into an AC has ensured that now the main computer is able to identify the threat by eveluating its thermal signatures with fed patterns ........ the rapid urbanisation and densely populated regions have given excellent chance to study the AC parameters in such surroundings and get the idea on how to be able to distinguish an AC from other clutter

 

[valkyr]

Exactly.I was watching documentry on Discovery Channel and they showed Israeli pilots dodging Egypt heat seeking missiles by flying extremely low so missile was unable to determine where is the real aircraft.

Saad AWACs can do that .... yes the question is that some one trained and not me is sitting there .......

just a joke mate ..... but AWACs can discern nowadays

 

[fatman17]

In the 1971 war, four F-104As were lost in combat against the IAF MiG-21s. One pilot successfully ejected from his F-104 over shark infested waters, but was never found by the Indian rescue team.

Muradk Is this true ?

they were lost in the MiG-21 pilots dreams!!!

 

[valkyr]

Cant stop laughing after reading this; but since now we all know this tactic i am sure PAF will develop something new .

too good ..... its good to have sense of humor ......ditto

 

[valkyr]

they were lost in the MiG-21 pilots dreams!!!

actually quite right ..... the PAF never flew beyond the initial few hours in 1971 ...... they never got the chance then .....

 

[ahmeddsid]

actually quite right ..... the PAF never flew beyond the initial few hours in 1971 ...... they never got the chance then .....

Okay, let me tell you something. You have to give it to PAF that the IAF was not able to annihilate them in the 2 wars. Why was it? It was a failure on IAFs part I feel. We have to Be Patriotic, but we have to learn from History too and learn to learn more. I have always felt the PAF is the best among 3 Pak Armed forces, but then again its me and my personal feelings.

 

[valkyr]

Okay, let me tell you something. You have to give it to PAF that the IAF was not able to annihilate them in the 2 wars. Why was it? It was a failure on IAFs part I feel. We have to Be Patriotic, but we have to learn from History too and learn to learn more. I have always felt the PAF is the best among 3 Pak Armed forces, but then again its me and my personal feelings.

ahmed am not here to get stuck in india pakistan we won we won contest ..... for in 1965 PAF had proved its self and in MY OPINION they won the air contest though losing the war .... and the situation got reversed in 1971 as a result of reversal of 1965 and the lessons learnt by IAF and now the IAF won in MY OPINION ....... and my opinion does not matter

in truth i think the objectives describe the victory/defeat. In words of Gen George S Patton "you are not beaten until you conceed so" and I agree. They lost the '71 thoroughly and that is the end .... they conceeded the war then .... so its useless to define who won the air battle ...... there is no doubt in 65 they more than managed to challenge IAF and maul it. in 71 they were very much limited to Air Defense role and downing more ACs by about 10 pieces of an invading AF is not a sign of victory ........ am not getting dragged into who won and who lost and who is better ....... read the military history of neutral countries and then reach your own conclusions .... i did so

 

[ahmeddsid]

ahmed am not here to get stuck in india pakistan we won we won contest ..... for in 1965 PAF had proved its self and in MY OPINION they won the air contest though losing the war .... and the situation got reversed in 1971 as a result of reversal of 1965 and the lessons learnt by IAF and now the IAF won in MY OPINION ....... and my opinion does not matter

in truth i think the objectives describe the victory/defeat. In words of Gen George S Patton "you are not beaten until you conceed so" and I agree. They lost the '71 thoroughly and that is the end .... they conceeded the war then .... so its useless to define who won the air battle ...... there is no doubt in 65 they more than managed to challenge IAF and maul it. in 71 they were very much limited to Air Defense role and downing more ACs by about 10 pieces of an invading AF is not a sign of victory ........ am not getting dragged into who won and who lost and who is better ....... read the military history of neutral countries and then reach your own conclusions .... i did so

Yes Pakistan Lost the 71 war . But let us not forget, they have learnt a lot from that. We must never underestimate them.

 

[valkyr]

Yes Pakistan Lost the 71 war . But let us not forget, they have learnt a lot from that. We must never underestimate them.

exactly my point, you learn from what has happened. no battle in todays world is new and innovative, its just history repeating itself, only with new tech.

and to underestimate is unforgivable but to overestimate is downright stupidity ........

acceptance of your own strengths and facts ... that is what is a pragmatic approach ....... and ability to understand them is intelligence

 

[ahmeddsid]

exactly my point, you learn from what has happened. no battle in todays world is new and innovative, its just history repeating itself, only with new tech.

and to underestimate is unforgivable but to overestimate is downright stupidity ........

acceptance of your own strengths and facts ... that is what is a pragmatic approach ....... and ability to understand them is intelligence

Yes, Think Tanks like X Man and others Admit IAF has some good Pieces of Machinery Like the SU30, which is currently the best thing in the subcontinent. But It doesnt mean the MKI is invincible, I am sure the PAF has taken the MKI into consideration in all their Plans.