PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[asaad-ul-islam]

sidewinders weren't reliable in '71, and definitely not '65. The USAF, at one point in time, dropped dogfighting as a part of pilot training after the arrival of the F-4 Phantom and it's sidewinder kills during the Vietnam War. However, many of those missiles did not hit their targets and dogfighting was reintroduced into the pilot training cirriculum. I watch a lot of USAF dogfighting documentaries on the military history channel, so trust me, I know.

the F-104 starfighters were in poor condition in the 1970's, thanks to western arm embargoes. a lot of those fighters were non-operational. Jordanian starfighters were shipped to Pakistan, but were not capable of firing the sidewinders. actually, so many of the fighters were in poor condition thanks to western embargoes.

besides, I don't see the point of any comparison. The indian airforce had a larger airforce, with more modern equipment from the Soviet Union. india had V-75 Volga/SA-2 Guideline SAM-systems, so I don't see what the big fuss is about sidewinders.

 

[BATMAN]

sir some of the points needs to be verified:
1-j10 by 2009 for paf ,how many would that be ,what is the technical details and turnover number for that aircraft.?
>No J-10, only J-10B.
2-the paf will catch up with the iaf in 2012 in the current confirguration as stated by the article that is 3 -4 more years what makes the paf think that iaf will be doing nothing in terms of modernasation in these 3 years.
>No one thinks that IAF will be doing nothing.
We know, PAK-FA, MRCA and TEJA programs are on the cards but non of them will be on ground till 2012. That’s why the writer did not mention 2013 or any time beyond!
3-russian and soviet technology is less reliable and less effective and that the chinse technology is much better,ok fine on which western technology are the chinse planes designed, what kind of engines,airframe, ammunition does the chinese use and whats the origin ? i think its mostly russian technology.
>Russian technology is not very far behind in concept/design but manufacturing is not in par with western counterparts and it is no surprise.
Europe and US have far more industrial production experience and have better quality control, management and HR development approach.
Chinese are improving fast as they are familiar with western and Japanese manufacturing process and management and they are paying top attention to the quality of their defence products.
J11-B is a clear indication of their raised expectations and quality standards, Chinese were simply not satisfied with the build quality of various parts in SU27.
Sorry, I mean no offence but I hope you are familiar with remarks of IAF cheif about SU-35! and haven’t you ever heard Indians taking the credit for the invention of SU-30MKI?
Same time, I also believe that Russia is closing in fast and we will witness improvements.
4-the great red flag exercises what to say i think if the us were not so wary of the flanker they would not have invited the iaf for participation with that particular plane.how do you expect the americans to even acknowledge that someone else other than them can also build a plane.?dosent pakistan already know of the american backstabbing and double standards.
>This is true that from US point of view, main idea of indian participation in red flag was to know the potential of Russias top technology perhaps they had even the opportunity to get to know about SU-30 technology more than we know. US double games are no secret to any country of world but we all are dependent on US as they effectively control most of the world.
5-paf has better pilots and technical staff thats true it is accepted worldwide
>
6-pakistan having western aircrafts ok as the things are going in the next 5 years iaf will have majorly israeli and us technology that will be much higher than what the paf will posses.ust think paf is upgrading its f-16 to bloc 52 what if the iaf decides to buy the f-16IN for mrca which f-16 will be a better plane<still i think pakistan will have an advantage because of its experience in handling and iaf will be new to it>still its a matter that paf should bear in mind.
>We agree that all future indian defence aqusitions will be advance but the gap will be closing. As you mentioned F-16 Block 52 and F-16IN not much of a difference.
In hardawre terms, Pakistan's advantage will lie in development potential of JF-17 and ventures with friendly China.
PAF will have the same advantage &#8216;more experience&#8217; in JF-17 as well as compare to any of future Indian fighter aqusitions.
7- incase of a conflict does pakistani leadership have the diplomatic will to deal with india just imagine what happened in kargil, pakistan was woefull in diplomatic conduct in regards to india, what role did paf play there nothing.
>This is clearly our weak point but if we look at history we found that it was not all bad, so no question of loosing hopes.
8- iaf wont conduct airstrikes from its forward bases just consider the range of its flankers and mirages.
>At the moment Flankers are in forward basis and if they operate from rear basis PAF AWACS will see them and the moment they get in range of our defenses than they may not be able to make their way back home.
9-- in noways do you compare the mirage roses with mirage 2000-09 they belong to complete different generation of fighters.you cannot change the fighter generation by just upgrading it.
>when the aircraft in upgrade have identical air frame as the later generation, upgrade can make them even.

And rest you reminded us.
BTW, the source of article is not a Pakistani source.

 

[Keysersoze]

PLAF is 400 years ahead of IAF. lets do some comparing

comparisons:

PLAF:

-200 SU-27
-100 Su-30 MKK (I doubt it b.c. they ordered after India and have just as much)
-120-160 J-10

so roughly 400-460 MODERN AIRPLANES

old planes are 500 j-7 (useless), and 300 J-8 (cant operate from high altitudes where fighting will be done)


vs

IAF:

-100 MKI (Prolly 140 by end of 2009)
-70 Mig-29
-50-60 M2K

and

125 Bisons (Upgraded with BVR, and "stealth" to F-16 and F-15 type radars)


now numerically PLAF has a 2:1 advantage in terms of modern planes and a and a 4:1 advantage in terms of all planes, however considering that the J-7 and J-8 have a short range and MUST take off from high altitude, they are useless.

so we'll say PLAF has 2:1 advantage

but you must remember that the Su-27 and Su-30 MKK are INFERIOR to the MKI so we will say the kill ratio between them is 2 Su-27:1 MKI and 1.5 MKK:1 MKI. this seems logical because the Su-27s and MKK's will also have to take off from high altitude, thus they will have to carry less fuel/weapons. While the IAF's MKI's can take off from sea level with a full combat load and fuel.

Considering those numbers it would take 66 MKI's to match the 100 MKK's, the remaining 34 can match at least 68 Su-27s.

Then there are roughly, 130 Mig-29s and M2K's to match rougly 280 fighters. If we say a 1:1 ratio then in the end the PLAF still has 150 modern fighters, to attack. But if the 125 Bisons were used in a defensive role than they+ground defenses would be more than a match for those 150 remaining fighters. Than the PLAF would bring in its massive fleet of 800 3rd generation fighters, they wouldn't dare cross into Indian airspace because of the new spyders, akash, and other systems deployed, since they lack EW they would be slaughtered.

also with all of the fighters gone, the PLAF still lacks good EW capability to bomb targets, which the IAF HAS on its 140 Jaguars, and 120 Mig-27s both recently upgraded with Israeli avionics.

so please dont say that the PLAF is ahead of the IAF, because in a defensive role the IAF would be more than a match for the PLAF.

Yes china has tons of cruise missiles to attack airfields with, but they go slow (600 miles per hour) and would take anywhere from 30 minutes-1 hour to arrive to the target, in that time appropriate countermeasures would have been taken, and the IA just inducted a few batteries of Brahmos which can retaliate on PLAF airfields if there is an attack.

But if tibet was a flat plane, than the IAF would have a hard time coping, but it is not and china simply cannot bring its entire air force into that theatre at once.

and remember that the IN can easily blockade the malaca straights and stop shipments of fuel to china (that is her biggest concern) thus the island of pearls.

and no they wont go through gadwar port which can also be blockaded.

and the PLAF does NOT have a blue water navy, it may have 60+submarines, and 60 destroyers and frigates. But of those only 10-15 subs and warships are modern. their nuclear subs are a joke, i read that they are so much louder than comparable subs and easily detected with P-8.

so in conclusion, if there were to be a war between India and China, china would find it very difficult to win, the IAF+IN is a very potent combo.

and i dont think pakistan is in the position to help china right now, because of afganistan and a bad economy.

hmmm where to start with this huge mess of a post......Seems you are abit of a idiot
Frankly it is so fantastical that i am not gonna bother......grow up and stop posting bullshit........

 

[Muradk]

Yes he was. He mentioned Khattak to me

You sure its Ali Quli Khan Khattak and not his brother? I thought the former was the CGS Pakistan Army.

The IP definitely remembered the Khattak name. Thus he mentioned that they did not use first names.

He remembered Khatak because he had a big beard.

 

[blain2]

He remembered Khatak because he had a big beard.

That and the height!

 

[fatman17]

India - Pakistan War, 1971; Introduction


I have read somewhere that less than 30% of PAF kills in 71 were made with sidewinders. Early sidewinders may have been better than Russian versions, but they were still crap. I reckon most, if not all, of the winder kills could have been made with cannon.

As for the Mirage:

Also from the above source.

if your source is indian, i for one will take it with a grain of salt!

 

[hanmya]

PLAF is 400 years ahead of IAF. lets do some comparing

comparisons:

PLAF:

-200 SU-27
-100 Su-30 MKK (I doubt it b.c. they ordered after India and have just as much)
-120-160 J-10

so roughly 400-460 MODERN AIRPLANES

old planes are 500 j-7 (useless), and 300 J-8 (cant operate from high altitudes where fighting will be done)


vs

IAF:

-100 MKI (Prolly 140 by end of 2009)
-70 Mig-29
-50-60 M2K

and

125 Bisons (Upgraded with BVR, and "stealth" to F-16 and F-15 type radars)


now numerically PLAF has a 2:1 advantage in terms of modern planes and a and a 4:1 advantage in terms of all planes, however considering that the J-7 and J-8 have a short range and MUST take off from high altitude, they are useless.

so we'll say PLAF has 2:1 advantage

but you must remember that the Su-27 and Su-30 MKK are INFERIOR to the MKI so we will say the kill ratio between them is 2 Su-27:1 MKI and 1.5 MKK:1 MKI. this seems logical because the Su-27s and MKK's will also have to take off from high altitude, thus they will have to carry less fuel/weapons. While the IAF's MKI's can take off from sea level with a full combat load and fuel.

Considering those numbers it would take 66 MKI's to match the 100 MKK's, the remaining 34 can match at least 68 Su-27s.

Then there are roughly, 130 Mig-29s and M2K's to match rougly 280 fighters. If we say a 1:1 ratio then in the end the PLAF still has 150 modern fighters, to attack. But if the 125 Bisons were used in a defensive role than they+ground defenses would be more than a match for those 150 remaining fighters. Than the PLAF would bring in its massive fleet of 800 3rd generation fighters, they wouldn't dare cross into Indian airspace because of the new spyders, akash, and other systems deployed, since they lack EW they would be slaughtered.

also with all of the fighters gone, the PLAF still lacks good EW capability to bomb targets, which the IAF HAS on its 140 Jaguars, and 120 Mig-27s both recently upgraded with Israeli avionics.

so please dont say that the PLAF is ahead of the IAF, because in a defensive role the IAF would be more than a match for the PLAF.

Yes china has tons of cruise missiles to attack airfields with, but they go slow (600 miles per hour) and would take anywhere from 30 minutes-1 hour to arrive to the target, in that time appropriate countermeasures would have been taken, and the IA just inducted a few batteries of Brahmos which can retaliate on PLAF airfields if there is an attack.

But if tibet was a flat plane, than the IAF would have a hard time coping, but it is not and china simply cannot bring its entire air force into that theatre at once.

and remember that the IN can easily blockade the malaca straights and stop shipments of fuel to china (that is her biggest concern) thus the island of pearls.

and no they wont go through gadwar port which can also be blockaded.

and the PLAF does NOT have a blue water navy, it may have 60+submarines, and 60 destroyers and frigates. But of those only 10-15 subs and warships are modern. their nuclear subs are a joke, i read that they are so much louder than comparable subs and easily detected with P-8.

so in conclusion, if there were to be a war between India and China, china would find it very difficult to win, the IAF+IN is a very potent combo.

and i dont think pakistan is in the position to help china right now, because of afganistan and a bad economy.

Hmmn, interesting angle of analysis, but I wouldnt underestimate the Chinese PLAAF so easily. Similarly the PLAN have recently sent their boats to the Gulf of Aedn to battle piracy, which is but a major show of force and they have begun flexing their blue water capability.
Its another point that Indian navy already has been patrolling those waters and has had skirmishes with those little pircks!

 

[Sgt Automatic]

Well, I would expect more civility than that as this is perhaps our first exchange.

I agree that India had been there before and it may have provided an element of some advantage. How large that advantage would be anybody's guess. Also to attribute the South African victory to just being the hosts would not be correct in my opinion. The parameters of the competition seemed to be quite fair. Let me know if you did not think so and why.

Again Red flag may have proved something. I opened a thread on 1971 air war to understand why some Pakistanis claim that they won the air war. I did not find any objective reasons to believe that either.

Even about 1965, I believe there are many myths floating around. Mey be we will get a chance to discuss that in some other thread.

Till then...

I hate posting long posts because I know half of you won't even read them, but here it goes.

I guess I should have explained that point clearly and thorougly. It was meant to go in context with the previous sentence about Indian Special Forces being there before. As we know that they were hosting the show, in this case that is quite possible that their special forces had been there before, and secondly every home team has advantages. That is not to say that the exercises were fixed or anything just a simple point to the fact that they might have had more knowledge to what was coming in comparison to lets say the Indian forces.

To the second high lighted statement. In my opinion the real reason why you lack to understand any of the points is simply your honorable patriotism to your nation. I as a neutral observer has seen many trusted, unbiased and neutral points regarding the performance of Pakistani forces during those wars. After all that is not to say that the Indian army did not perform their duties maturly or perfessionally.

I would like to give you an example of how can a smaller army be better trained, well simply first of all the amount of time spent on the cadet could be increased because there aren't as many to train. And if you compare regular US infantry to the regular Canadian infantry, the Canadian are far more trained and equiped than the US. (that statement comes from a friend of mine who regularly trains snipers in the Princess Patritia Infantry Division, where as always they get to train with several other countries including the States.)

And I would like to point out again that during the air combat excersies held in India, the USAF pilots were very very new and did not have even close to the experiece the IAF pilots had, and that could explain such steep results.

But lets just think about all of this ridiculas discussion. The question of who is better than who, is a juvenile one. USAF, IAF, PAF, these are all very professional and definately world class forces. And the question about moral which would definatly contribute to better results comes in to play. During the past wars the PAF were always the defenders, so this threat to there survival added to the moral of the PAF {which I know for a fact is extremely high (comparable to the IAF[Israeli] during the yom kipur war, and the Japanese Kamakazi fighters during the WWII)} plus their superb training would and did easily resulted in the achivements.

So please stop bashing at each others armies and start to admit that the other people than your self could be better than you. Another reason I would like to mention to why the IAF did quite nicely in the cope india was because the IAF pilots concidered their US counterparts better trained and equipped plus the whole world was watching including Pakistan. This would have put the IAF pilots in a mode that, we are going to lose but lets take as many of them down with us as we can. And simply would have taken more risks and did better. On the other hand USAF pilots could easily have been over confident.

I would like to mention one major flaw in Jugding ones airforce just from exersises. In many of those exercies conducted in Cope India, the forces from both sides were told to perform in certain ways.

The only way that you could find out which Airforces pilot is better, would be in real combat or in one on one mock combat where both sides have their best jets but which would be comparable to each other. And both fitted with equal amounts of weapons also comparable, extremly similar radar, thrust to weight ratio and the list goes on and on. So comparing them on that basis is very limited.

to you too bud.

 

[atifshoaib]

I am very tensed nowadays due to the tension rising in our region.
I have a very prominent source in Middle East. It told me that very soon the U.S. will send its more army to Afghanistan and this time the army will be deployed at PAK-AFGHAN border.
Israel is urging India and America that he will stop GAZA OPERATION if they do a joint strike on Pakistan and its nuclear program.

My question to you is that Pak army plus air force is capable to tackle the situation??

 

[Zob]

ok people as for india and US doing a joint strike on us well US will not do so until it makes some fabricated proof infront of the world that it is absolutely necessary!! as for IAF capablities...look my indian friends can we please discuss a scenario like what would india strike what targets if it opts for a "surgical strike" and what will PAF strike in retaliation. as for the joint effort against pakistan guys come on it is a fact that there is BIG CONSPIRACY GOING ON AGAINST PAKISTAN!! but this is not our topic.

 

[x_man]

the F-104 starfighters were in poor condition in the 1970's, thanks to western arm embargoes. a lot of those fighters were non-operational. Jordanian starfighters were shipped to Pakistan, but were not capable of firing the sidewinders. actually, so many of the fighters were in poor condition thanks to western embargoes.

A quick update on F-104s…Sir Murad, please correct any errata…

PAF lost two Starfighters during the 65 war and these two losses were not replaced by the US given the arms embargo imposed on Pakistan. Therefore No. 9 Squadron was left with only 8 F-104s and 2 F-104Bs after the hostilities. In addition PAF faced the problem of spare parts stocks for the aircraft which were also embargoed and had to be sourced from third party sources or black market…

During the period between the two wars, one F-104A aircraft was written-off in 1967 in a ground accident while it caught fire during start up. Another F-104A was lost in 1968 when Flt Lt GU Abbasi had a fatal crash while practicing low level aerobatics.

In 1968 when Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) had inducted F-104 A&B Starfighter , they requested PAF to convert RJAF pilots on the aircraft along with leading some pilots to Instructor Pilot status. This started PAF’s association with Jordanian F-104s…

With only 8 jets remaining in service, it was an uphill task to maintain them especially during the embargo…While these were put into storage; however these were pulled out of the storage in before 1971 war as hostilities with India built-up.

Jordan provided nine F-104s in support of Pakistan during the 1971 war…The Jordanian Starfighters lacked carrying the Sidewinders that PAFs F-104s were capable of….Its was a serious short coming..

During the war PAF lost her one F-104 and one Jordanian F-104 was also lost…In these combat losses, Wg Cdr Middlecoat and Flt Lt Samad lost their lives…

When the war ended, the remaining eight RJAF Starfighters went back home. PAF offered RJAF one of its own F-104s in replacement of the one that was lost in combat, but the RJAF did not agree….


Wg Cdr Mervin Middlecoat

PAFs 104

RJAFs F-104 in PAF colours..

 

[fatman17]

A quick update on F-104s&#8230;Sir Murad, please correct any errata&#8230;

PAF lost two Starfighters during the 65 war and these two losses were not replaced by the US given the arms embargo imposed on Pakistan. Therefore No. 9 Squadron was left with only 8 F-104s and 2 F-104Bs after the hostilities. In addition PAF faced the problem of spare parts stocks for the aircraft which were also embargoed and had to be sourced from third party sources or black market&#8230;

During the period between the two wars, one F-104A aircraft was written-off in 1967 in a ground accident while it caught fire during start up. Another F-104A was lost in 1968 when Flt Lt GU Abbasi had a fatal crash while practicing low level aerobatics.

In 1968 when Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) had inducted F-104 A&B Starfighter , they requested PAF to convert RJAF pilots on the aircraft along with leading some pilots to Instructor Pilot status. This started PAF&#8217;s association with Jordanian F-104s&#8230;

With only 8 jets remaining in service, it was an uphill task to maintain them especially during the embargo&#8230;While these were put into storage; however these were pulled out of the storage in before 1971 war as hostilities with India built-up.

Jordan provided nine F-104s in support of Pakistan during the 1971 war&#8230;The Jordanian Starfighters lacked carrying the Sidewinders that PAFs F-104s were capable of&#8230;.Its was a serious short coming..

During the war PAF lost her one F-104 and one Jordanian F-104 was also lost&#8230;In these combat losses, Wg Cdr Middlecoat and Flt Lt Samad lost their lives&#8230;

When the war ended, the remaining eight RJAF Starfighters went back home. PAF offered RJAF one of its own F-104s in replacement of the one that was lost in combat, but the RJAF did not agree&#8230;.


Wg Cdr Mervin Middlecoat

PAFs 104

RJAFs F-104 in PAF colours..

The IAF "claimed" that all 10 PAF F-104s were destroyed/shot down during the 65 air-war. however the PAF lined-up all 10 surviving F-104s after the cessation of hostilities at Mauripur AB or Sargodha AB. there is a B/W picture in the photo library!

x_man, i am surprised at your report of transfer of RJAF starfighters to PAF during the 71 war. generally most sources say that the RJAF starfighters like the Iranian F-5s never saw any action due to operational reasons.

 

[x_man]

The IAF "claimed" that all 10 PAF F-104s were destroyed/shot down during the 65 air-war. however the PAF lined-up all 10 surviving F-104s after the cessation of hostilities at Mauripur AB or Sargodha AB. there is a B/W picture in the photo library!

x_man, i am surprised at your report of transfer of RJAF starfighters to PAF during the 71 war. generally most sources say that the RJAF starfighters like the Iranian F-5s never saw any action due to operational reasons.

Sir frankly I wont pay much attention to their claims...The pic you are talking about is perhaps the below one in which all 10 F-104s are neatly lined up at Peshawar base ...

[/url][/IMG]

Unlike F-5s, the PAF had a good pool of pilots that were proficient on F-104s hence they were flown by our own pilots and were employed in the combat...Thats what I know , I hope Sir Murad K will correct me if I am wrong...looking forward to his input..

 

[fatman17]

MODERN MILITARY AIRCRAFT ANATOMY
TECHNICAL DRAWINGS OF 118 AIRCRAFT. 1945 TO THE PRESENT DAY.
GENERAL EDITORS: PAUL EDEN AND SOPH MOENG
2002, 2003
Page 132-133

....In Indian Air Force service, the Su-7 gained a reputation as a formidable combat asset during the confrontation with Pakistan in 1971. Approxamately 150 Su-7BMs were operational during the war, equipping seven units, five of which were based on the western front. 221 squadron was particularly active: raiding the sole PAF airbase Tezjgaon, outside Dacca and the airfield at Jessore. Some 32 Su-7 "Fitter-As" were lost....

 

[fatman17]

THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORLD AIR POWER
CONSULTANT EDITOR: BILL GUNSTON
1980,1986,1987
Page 128-129
Dassault-Breguet Mirage III and IIING.

.....Pakistans first 18 IIIEPs were delivered in 1967-69 and fought against India in the December 71 war, claiming eight air victories and two on the ground. Also received were IIIRPs and IIIDPs......

Guys/friends--I can go on and on. i have a huge library of aircraft books (purchased at flea markets because the new ones are so expensive). anyway, i am not trying to win any brownie points just re-iterating what x_man and blain2 have been stating that the IAF was never able to achieve the sort of air-superiority (which our friends are wanting to believe) during the two air wars. the rest is history as they say. just ask the protagonists from both sides who lived to "talk" about their life-threatening experiences and lets pay "homage" to the heroes who gave their lives so that we can sit here and "btch" at each other!