PAF to acquire 36 5th generation combat aircraft from China: PAF Chief

[Munir]

One thing we know for sure... ACM was not satisfied with avionics of the j10... So it is better then the J10 A we have seen at Zhuhai. But whether it will have TVC... We have seen some intresting models at Zhuhai (9300 Kg) but still...

I thin the order will be finalised in middle 2009 and the delivery will be after the delivery of the F16c/d. The numbers depend on how well US behaves. Also Erieye will be delivered in september 2009 ad the rest of the aircraft a year later. The ACM will be in the US to see the rol out of the first PAF f16-52 but it will take another 6 months-year before that one will be delivered (2010).

So as NEO says... Unfortunately not as informed as we are. BTW, You guys do know that producing the latest F15 (SG) takes around 36 months to complete?

 

[Neo]

J-10 has been on our watch for couple of years, its been evaluated by PAF and indeed failed to meet ASR hence the reason to launch FC-20...A dedicated PAF specific export model which will have lots of extra features, western avionics and weapon suite.

TVC isn't likely to be added since it will only delay the induction due required structural changes and testing but on the other hand we should not forget that official request has been forwarded to Russia for the delivery of TVC capable Saturn AL-31 for the FC-20.

Regardless how the F-16's never ending story evolves, Imho there's a great role for FC-20 in PAF and 36 is just an initial order. We might purchase upto 120 of these lovely birds depending on the changing geo-stratigical environment of the region.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

AM, tell me you made the 'train hugging' part up!

 

[Munir]

As far as I know due to the fact that they were long way with J10 they could not alter avionic set. For the JF17 it would have been the exact same problem cause the western firms that were invited were as usual showing their true colours by moving away. Then Mushaf Ali Mir decided to make the plane a more modular system where they could alter engine and avionics if needed. The problem was that this meant that the aircraft needed extra room for engine if needed and the avionics were designed around multiple databus. For an aviation engineer it is pretty clear to see that there are extra margins left for a bigger engine... Somehow that idea made the plane more flexible but also they could also go ahead with the design.

I can tell you that the flexibility for the engine had effect on the location for the airbrake... If you take some start designs then you will notice it... But as an engineer you know this...

 

[SSGPA1]

It takes around 6 to 7 years from POC to final roll out for a fighter. Chona has been working on this jet for almost 6 to 7 yrs. There are some jets which are currently in service and making J10B version will only require modifications to avionics.

At POC and many later stages jet designs go thorugh various scenarios to ensure that each design is capable of meeting a customer's requirement.

As long as we are not requesting air frame design change and as long as we are a paying customer, 2010 is a go.

 

[fatman17]

Chona?????

 

[Super Falcon]

j 10 is 5th generation fighter jet i think its not jxx will be the 5th generation fighter jet for me

 

[Nihat]

j 10 is 5th generation fighter jet i think its not jxx will be the 5th generation fighter jet for me

spot on , J-10 is 4.5 Generation as it's characteristics match when compared to other aircrafts of this generation.

 

[fatman17]

Pakistan to introduce 36 China-made fighter planes

By Li Xinran | 2008-11-21 | ONLINE EDITION

PAKISTAN plans to introduce 36 China-made FC-20 (or Fighter-10 in China) fighter planes by 2010, Beijing-based Global Times reported, citing Pakistan's air force chief of staff.

The current world economic crisis won't affect the Pakistan air force's major projects, the general said on Wednesday.

A plan was being discussed to introduce two squadrons of FC-20s, Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed was cited as saying, according to the report.

Pakstan's air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said.

Pakistan will also set up a squadron of JF-17 "Thunder" fighters by the first quarter of 2009. The JF-17 was jointly developed by China and Pakistan, which will expand Pakistan's air force's maximum battle radius to 650 kilometers.

Pakistan also signed a deal with China to import four sets of airborne warning and control systems, according to the newspaper.

Chinese story link

 

[Munir]

Background...

Description: AL-31 is a family of turbofan engines developed to power the Su-27/32 multi-role fighter aircraft family. They were developed by the former Soviet Union and currently are manufactured by NPO Saturn. They deliver between 27,000- and 32,000 pounds of thrust and are one of the keys for Su-27 outstanding performance. Besides growing in thrust, AL-31 have incorporated other advancements such as Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) providing Super Maneuverability to Su-27/32 aircraft.

The NPO Saturn AL-31F model was selected to power the Su-27 and Su-27UB aircraft and is rated at 27,500 pounds of thrust. The same engine was also provided to the Su-33 and Su-30MK aircraft. Some reports suggested that Russia was offering AL-31 to Iran to re-engine its F-14 Tomcat air defense fighters in the late 1990s. It is also known that AL-31FN is an engine option for some Chinese indigenous fighter aircraft programs such as J-10/F-10 and FBC-1.

Some older bits from this forum...

In July 2005, China ordered an additional 100 AL-31FN engines for more J-10 productions. Some reports suggested that these could be the improved model with increased thrust and possibly a fully variable, all-aspect thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle. Lyulka-Saturn demonstrated a TVC-equipped AL-31FN during the 2002 Zhuhai Air Show. The TVC capability would further enhance the aircraft's manoeuvrability.

Another source from a Russian engine company noted that China was intent of acquiring a thrust-vectoring system for its AL-31FN engines in order to develop a carrier-capable version of the Chengdu J-10 fighter. For the J-10, thrust-vectoring is deemed necessary to assist rapid take-off in the event of a "bolter," or failed landing that misses the carrier arrester-hook cable. This source also notes that thrust-vectoring will allow the J-10 to achieve an even lower landing-speed, an important safety concern for carrier aircraft. It is not clear whether the thrust-vectoring engine will allow the PLA to build a carrier in the Soviet/Russian style, not using a catapult. The Sukhoi source countered with concerns that the J-10 might not have enough thrust to take-off without a catapult by pointing out that the Su-33 could.


So 2002--- 2008. Enough time to get and absorb it in the J10B. It will mean that PAF will have a single engined TVC a lot earlier then many. That means that the MKI with its TVC and canards has to fight a smaller plane with same capabilities...


It is even more strange...
Indian Mig29 with RD33 against JF17 with RD33
Indian MKI with Saturn against FC20 with Saturn
Indian Mirage 2000 with Snecma m53 againt maybe JF17 with M53-p2
Indian LCA wih Kaveri...
PAF F16-52 with PW220...

Isn't that funny?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

1) The current world economic crisis won't affect the Pakistan air force's major projects, the general said on Wednesday.


2) Pakstan's air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said.

niceeeee baby!
FC-20 by 2010!
so TVC engine has been sorted out so now lets hope for AESA radar and even better armament package.

 

[daredevil]

It is even more strange...
Indian Mig29 with RD33 against JF17 with RD33
Indian MKI with Saturn against FC20 with Saturn
Indian Mirage 2000 with Snecma m53 againt maybe JF17 with M53-p2
Indian LCA wih Kaveri...
PAF F16-52 with PW220...

Isn't that funny?

You are forgetting

120 MRCA
LCA with Kaveri-Snecma JV engine

 

[Munir]

You are forgetting

120 MRCA
LCA with Kaveri-Snecma JV engine

Indeed so much of the same... The only major difference is that India want dual engines fighterjets. But in essence they are following the same path.

 

[SSGPA1]

India should change the project from LCA to HCA

At this point the project is an over kill because of the money and time spent.

India should have gone with a simpler fighter jet specially when they will end up buying billions worth of twin engine jets.

There is so much political pressure on India to buy new jets from US which will only increase in coming days to cap some impact of recession.

 

[HAIDER]

Anyone define. PAF never had this capability before and whats so good having this ?

Thursday, November 20, 2008
Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood says 5th generation aircraft will provide an extra punch to PAF
ISLAMABAD: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad on Wednesday said 36 high-tech combat aircraft (CF-20) would be inducted into the PAF fleet by 2010.

“The 21st Century — fifth generation — aircraft are of Chinese origin and would provide an extra punch to the air force,” he said while answering questions after a briefing to the visiting participants of the National Media Workshop being organised by the National Defence University at the Air Headquarters.

He said that modalities were being discussed to acquire two squadrons of the aircraft for the PAF. He said the FC-20 aircraft had been selected after hectic and lengthy deliberations besides considering a long list of the similar category aircraft of various origins. The engine of the aircraft would be manufactured by Russia with the most modern reverse technology, he said.

The air chief said the first squadron of the indigenously developed fighter aircraft — JF-17 (Thunder) — would be inducted into the PAF fleet in the first quarter of 2009, enhancing agility of the air force and increasing its reach beyond 350 nautical miles.

He said after laborious efforts, the PAF had also acquired night-war capability, due to which the country’s defence had been made further impregnable. “This capability has brought the PAF among a few air forces around the globe, which have the ability to carry out war operations during night times.

“This capability had become imperative to be achieved, especially in the prevailing global and regional situations,” the PAF chief said. He said the roll-out of the first batch of the F-16 (C&D) aircraft for Pakistan would be held in the USA in January next, where he himself would be present to witness the auspicious occasion.

The US would supply an improved version of the F-16 aircraft to be inducted into the PAF by 2010. In the surveillance field, he said, a Swedish company would supply three SAAB surveillance aircraft to the PAF by September next year, while contract for acquiring four AWACS systems from China had already been signed.

He said despite economic constraints, all the important programmes of the PAF were being run uninterrupted with the aim to make it a real force to meet the challenges.Air Chief Marshal Tanvir said the UAV technology was achieved earlier and drones were being manufactured indigenously. Earlier, the participants were given a detailed briefing by the vice chief of the air staff. Senior officers of the PAF and the National Defence University were also present.
PAF to acquire 36 combat aircraft from China: PAF chief