PAF should've invested more on J-10s rather than JF-17s

[batmannow]

Doing that to a Jet engine is not that simple.. Ask the Chinese.. Its a global economy.. every one no longer needs to be able to do everything. System integration is the name of the game.. Component development is best left to those who do it the best.. Namely Americans and Russians..

They r learning it with lightinig speed, -n comming 5 years or so you will be astonished!

 

[karan.1970]

Not necesarry, Geo strategic equations are a funny game. Dependency is never fruitful, no matter how close your ally is. Case and point dassault/argentina, US/Pak etc.

Over dependency is not.. Dependency is fine as long as you dont have a monopolistic relationship with the seller like Pakistan had with USA and now has with China.. Unlike that, India does not have over dependence on any one supplier.. Including Russia..

The name of the game is to make these purchases as business transactions and not simply an ally helping another ally..

say if we had a top notch kaveri, wouldn't we be in a better state...

Absolutely.. But are we in the dumps without it.. Surely not...

There are two things to learn from pakistan and china in this context... Co-production, which we never did with russia, UK

err... Su MKI and Brahmos..

No matter what opinion you hold of JF17's

I hold a pretty decent opinion about JF 17

PAF can produce as many as they like when they have complete lines. If India makes 273rd MKI we have to pay the russians.

India needs to pay for the 1st 272 MKIs as well, and so does Pakistan for its JFTs in terms of cost of components made in China and Russian engines.. Its a different thing that China extends soft loans to Pakistan due to its strategic compulsions.

They r learning it with lightinig speed, -n comming 5 years or so you will be astonished!

sure.. But as of now.. Nada...and the point is not to belittle China, but to examine the need for every country to have its own home grown jet engine

 

[MilSpec]

Over dependency is not.. Dependency is fine as long as you dont have a monopolistic relationship with the seller like Pakistan had with USA and now has with China.. Unlike that, India does not have over dependence on any one supp
lier.. Including Russia..
The name of the game is to make these purchases as business transactions and not simply an a another ally...

I exactly understand what you are saying, i am not going to build a sedan at home if need one. But in this context, although we can ensure a flying fleet, but if we had our own engines say a m88/fg414 equivalent and a al31F derrivative, what China is working on (rd33, al31 an others), along with good home grown avionics package, we could have never be arm twisted by anyone.

Today for jag refit we need rols roysce, fadec on rd33 we need rosoboron, for kaveri we need snecma, for lca GE has to come in. It would be ideal if we could have a technology base to aviod such situations. [/QUOTE]

err... Su MKI and Brahmos..


I hold a pretty decent opinion about JF 17

India needs to pay for the 1st 272 MKIs as well, and so does Pakistan for its JFTs in terms of cost of components made in China and Russian engines.. Its a different thing that China extends soft loans to Pakistan due to its strategic compulsions.

True, brahmos is a good start, but we need the same for K172, RVV-AE SD/MD, R27, KH31P in the same Brahmos corp.

 

[SQ8]

Not necesarry, Geo strategic equation is a funny game. Dependency is never fruitful, no matter how close your ally is. Case and point dassault/argentina, US/Pak etc.

say if we had a top notch kaveri, wouldn't we be in a better state...

There are two things to learn from pakistan and china in this context... Co-production, which we never did with russia, or UK and buying complete design rights like china did vis-a-vis SU27. No matter what opinion you hold of JF17's PAF can produce as many as they like when they have complete lines. If India makes 273rd MKI we have to pay the russians.

Here's the problem that comes with that..
We are also limited by the Chinese.. what they accomplish.. is usually not much more beyond that we can do.
Sure, purchases like the Erieye.. adding NATO spec encrypted radios and datalinks.. and excellent C4I networks is one thing.
But if you can get the equipment that you want.. you would not want to do it.
The JF-17 is an excellent piece of machine.. but at the end of the day.. It will never be what the PAF wants completely out for itself. The J-10 is a great aircraft..
But the aircraft the PAF truly fell in love with.. the EF and Rafale.. well you know.
And that it could not have because of both diplomacy and simple economic limitations.

The PAF is not limited by vision... its limited by the vision of its sister force and that of the forces running the country.
So it may have ideas thirty years ahead of the IAF.. as long as it cannot implement them..
As long as it cannot get something of the type the J-31 is .. today... its prowess counts a lot less.

They can co-produce.. reduce dependency .. on everybody else..
Iran has all of that.. but we all know where Iran stands.

In the end, its about the level of knowledge and information.
The Jf-17 is knowledge.. the Rafale is Information..
The PAF right now in terms of co-production may have better knowledge than HAL as a hypothesis.. but if HAL is able to gain much better information now.. and use that to build up knowledge.. then it leaves the equation imbalanced again.
The PAF's knowledge will come slow.. and its limited by what it gain out of China..

So while knowledge takes time to build and offers a stronger foundation..
Information has the ability to crack that knowledge foundation if its still in the brick and mortar stage.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

License produce ws series that replaces rd33 in FC1's from the start... It will payoff big in future....

jf17 sir, our aircraft is jf17 thunder who is operated by our AF n produced here.
FC1 is Chinese AC that is produced in China not in Pakistan.

 

[帅的一匹]

China will like to share knowledge with Pakistan cause the mutual trust level is extremely high. When you have information, you need strong reverse engineering skill turn it into your knowledge.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Every Air Force in the World has different needs and no one aircraft addresses all those needs. Pakistan Air Force is no different as it needs aircrafts for Ground Attack/Support role, Interceptors, Air Superiority, electronic warfare etc.

JF-17 is and excellent multi-role low cost aircraft that PAF can afford so it makes sense to induct in large numbers to make it the backbone of the PAF. Other aircrafts can be acquired in numbers that we can afford to address other needs of the PAF.

In the end it is all about choices you have to make because of a limited budget. As former President Bill Clinton once said " it is the economy, stupid..."

 

[帅的一匹]

J10b is sure much better than JF17, but it serves a good study platform for PAF to absorb knowledge.

Most importantly, JF17 is very cost effective fighter.

 

[帅的一匹]

PLA will induct at least 300 J10b in the future.

The induction had began at early of this year.

 

[MilSpec]

Here's the problem that comes with that..
We are also limited by the Chinese.. what they accomplish.. is usually not much more beyond that we can do.
Sure, purchases like the Erieye.. adding NATO spec encrypted radios and datalinks.. and excellent C4I networks is one thing.
But if you can get the equipment that you want.. you would not want to do it.
The JF-17 is an excellent piece of machine.. but at the end of the day.. It will never be what the PAF wants completely out for itself. The J-10 is a great aircraft..
But the aircraft the PAF truly fell in love with.. the EF and Rafale.. well you know.
And that it could not have because of both diplomacy and simple economic limitations.

The PAF is not limited by vision... its limited by the vision of its sister force and that of the forces running the country.
So it may have ideas thirty years ahead of the IAF.. as long as it cannot implement them..
As long as it cannot get something of the type the J-31 is .. today... its prowess counts a lot less.

They can co-produce.. reduce dependency .. on everybody else..
Iran has all of that.. but we all know where Iran stands.

In the end, its about the level of knowledge and information.
The Jf-17 is knowledge.. the Rafale is Information..
The PAF right now in terms of co-production may have better knowledge than HAL as a hypothesis.. but if HAL is able to gain much better information now.. and use that to build up knowledge.. then it leaves the equation imbalanced again.
The PAF's knowledge will come slow.. and its limited by what it gain out of China..

So while knowledge takes time to build and offers a stronger foundation..
Information has the ability to crack that knowledge foundation if its still in the brick and mortar stage.

there is nothing to contest in what you say. I completely agree.

indigenous stuff from developing countries have extreme difficulty in competing with "wants" of military. But you guys now this better than anyone, that when something indigenous works wonders, benefits are enormous.


All i was referring to is planning, PAF for example... when you have made the decision to induct jf17 as your back bone fighter as high as 250 units with different tranches... it is set to fly with rd33 or the WS variant. Relations with russia aren't the greatest but with china couldn't be any sweeter. If there is a chance to build the engine, PAF should grab it. Now JF 17 will be around for say another 20-25 years... and say pakistan decided to go with a twin engine j31 custom PAF version say 100 units + spares in future... you are looking at 500 to 600 units of rd33's with PAC getting more expertise, set aside another 50 engines for say PAFised Trainer/ground attack a/c ....
Would you prefer to source the engine from china/ russia or build it yourself. I am just saying license produced chinese engine with similar co-production deal. where pakistan can use it for it's own designs or even export it with some revenue sharing for IP. That will be always better than buying from russia.

In the case of my nation if kaveri was sucessfull... we would have promoted it to be used like amul butter on every IAF cookie from UAV's to LCA to even replacing m88's on rafales, twin amca... hell!! would have slapped on a couple on FGFA to make it work....

All I can say is learn from our mistakes.. set up laboratories and conduct pure research for next 10 years, try and perfect an indigenous engine... it will pay off bigtime....

 

[FarazUSA]

I read this blog on a forum. Have we really taken a $10 billion loan for 250 JF 17's.?

http:**filtercoffee.nationalinterest.in/2011/09/01/urdunama-khas-dost/

 

[SQ8]

I read this blog on a forum. Have we really taken a $10 billion loan for 250 JF 17's.?

http:**filtercoffee.nationalinterest.in/2011/09/01/urdunama-khas-dost/

Not the figure of $10 billion... but yes.. a large amount has been loaned from China to finance the JF-17 program and the PAF is struggling just to pay the interest on the many loans it has had to take to finance modernization programs.

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistan should have invested in both but right now I am really worried because we haven't heard of any progress on Block II and also not heard of when deal with China will be finaled on J-10 B

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan should have invested in both but right now I am really worried because we haven't heard of any progress on Block II and also not heard of when deal with China will be finaled on J-10 B

Hi,

You won't hear any thing on BLK 2---the reason---I have done my best to put a freeze on any info leak on this aircraft. Information maybe released by the air marshall etc or the def minister----but the open sewer leak like it happened with the jf17 in the past---won't be happening---.

There is no 100% guarantee---some young kid will be listening to his dad or his friends and other family members and would like to show off his prowess and post the info over here just to look important---.

I would highly reccommend the managers of this board to suspend or permanently ban thoe members who are posting information on missile batteries or posting pictures on military transport aircraft coming from certain places and times and posting the tail #'s of those aircraft.

 

[帅的一匹]

Keep it low down is important as well. There are many spies rolling in PDF, let us behave ourself.