PAF preparations for 2020

[Falcon26]

I don't know if the PAF is looking at them but Italy and Spain are offering their Typhoon Tranche 1s to the market. The issue though, besides having to foot for bespoke upgrades (for future-proofing), is the weapons package. Seriously, what are we going to be able to buy for those Typhoons? We'd have to use our AIM-120C5 stock, I guess, but what else (without drawing India's ire)? A-Darter for HOBS is plausible, but for BVR we would be stuck.

People give too much weight to india's "ire" remember both Pakistan and India were/are flying dassault fighter jets. It's all business. Plus Italy can guarantee that PAF has access to all the weapons it wants since it has rights to the platform as well.

 

[Zarvan]

As we enter 2017 the PAF are modernising the air force to meet future threats with the JF17 programme.

The announcement that there are 70 Thunders in PAF last week demonstrates superb progress on PAF choice for replacement of its mirage fleet . This programme is stark in contrast to the neighbours similar effort with only 4 similar fighters inducted despite 30 years of effort.

However by 2020 the threat to PAF will have reached new levels.

in 3 years time the adversary will have finished receiving the last of over 270 su30mki & the first squadron of the very expensive rafale F3 will also have arrived. This French fighter will be further supported by 50 upgraded mirage2000/5 fighters equipped new generation radars HMD and MICA BVRS .

In short PAF will face a much smaller but far more modern adversary in 3 years time. The MIG legacy will be over .

FOR PAF there has been recent efforts to acquire brand new F16/52 from USA firstly PAF did not take the option of additional 18 block 52 BUT went for reduced no of just 8 airframes. This for reasons discussed was did not reach a conclusion.

We hear that PAF is in discussion to acquire 14 used Jordanian falcons and may also resort to seeking used falcons from Europe where no approach has yet been made.

There has been much talk and much bandwidth spent discussing acquiring evaluating SU35 from Russia and even talk about J31.

This week chinease media confirmed that only the second J31 Tech demonstrator took to the skies which confirms that programme is a decade away from reaching export status. ie post 2025-2027

PAF need a realistic interim solution to face off the adversary above

Do they go with what they have and more thunders OR should PAF be looking at other options.

Should PAF approach USA again for the 18 block 52 THIS makes real sense

Or

Should GOP test the waters with Russia for the formidable SU35 . There seems to be a belief that Pak Russian relations are getting very strong at the expense of india .

Any Thoughts

Pakistan is looking for a third 4.5th Generation Fighter in fact recent visit of PAF chief to a country was to strike the dea according to one source of mine and that deal will be announced when first Rafale will be only few months away from arriving in India for Indian Air Force. I am not sure myself but one thing is for sure that PAF is looking for third 4.5th Generation Platform and most likely options are SU-35 and EuroFighter.

 

[CriticalThought]

I guess the EuroFighter MAY make sense if our 5+ gen program revolves around partnering with Turkey who is getting full access to EJ-200 engine. It would be a good idea to get familiar with the engine and Turkey may supply the weapons package and spares in case of sanctions. Ideally, I would like to see both Turkey and Pakistan going for the EuroFighter, just like both countries have F-16s and Pakistan keeps getting its F-16s upgraded from Turkey.

 

[Avicenna]

I guess the EuroFighter MAY make sense if our 5+ gen program revolves around partnering with Turkey who is getting full access to EJ-200 engine. It would be a good idea to get familiar with the engine and Turkey may supply the weapons package and spares in case of sanctions. Ideally, I would like to see both Turkey and Pakistan going for the EuroFighter, just like both countries have F-16s and Pakistan keeps getting its F-16s upgraded from Turkey.

I completely agree with the above.

 

[The Accountant]

The realistic chance.....only J-10 Cs....plus depends upon our economy a lot....May be some odd chances of Su-35s if we shall have a capacity to buy them.

J10 is not enough ... we need high end ... j10 is medium end and jf17 and f16 are almost at par with j10

I don't know if the PAF is looking at them but Italy and Spain are offering their Typhoon Tranche 1s to the market. The issue though, besides having to foot for bespoke upgrades (for future-proofing), is the weapons package. Seriously, what are we going to be able to buy for those Typhoons? We'd have to use our AIM-120C5 stock, I guess, but what else (without drawing India's ire)? A-Darter for HOBS is plausible, but for BVR we would be stuck.

Why would we go for new platform on a second hand fighter ... todays fighter are half of capable without integration to exisitng systems ... these aircrafts will cost a lot more in terms of integration ifrastructure and training ... so savings from getting old airframes will be negligible ...

 

[DJ_Viper]

the only way to have an edge over IAF is by procuring 5th gen. stealth aircrafts

But you are missing the other member's point. What would the PAF do between now and then?

Here's a simple solution. Force multiplication aka, get the J-10C and produce more JFT's. The rumor has it that the JFT block IV (aka, the JF-18) will start to shape up within the next 2 years and it would be an extension of the block III but more of a single engined stealth variant based on the J-31. So if that is really the truth, then you'd start to see some of those coming off the assembly line by 2020.

Next, I have suggested this before and it doesn't require too much work. On newer K-8's and F7's that can serve longer and have lower flying miles on the airframes, put the JFT's KLG radars and make them carry two SD-10's each.

This would immediately provide a massive punch as you can overnight increase your interception capability and add like 200 of these jets. In the future wars, BVR missiles are what would matter, not so much so the jet that fired them. The future belongs to radars and advance missiles. Physical manned jets will start to fade away from 2025-2030.

 

[The Accountant]

F-35 for Pakistan ? and that too in 5-10 years time ? Go home you are drunk. Pakistan is never going to get F-35 or you can say the nearest possibility that Pakistan could acquire F-35 is about 30 years from today and that too if US could able to develop next generation fleet and relation of both countries remain intact.

We dont need f35 ... whats the use of plan when it is sanctioned at the time of war ...

 

[Avicenna]

Agree. Observe what the USAF is doing with their sixth generation "systems" being developed. Who knows what the future of air warfare will be. Manned fighters will eventually be phased out.

 

[CriticalThought]

But you are missing the other member's point. What would the PAF do between now and then?

Here's a simple solution. Force multiplication aka, get the J-10C and produce more JFT's. The rumor has it that the JFT block IV (aka, the JF-18) will start to shape up within the next 2 years and it would be an extension of the block III but more of a single engined stealth variant based on the J-31. So if that is really the truth, then you'd start to see some of those coming off the assembly line by 2020.

Next, I have suggested this before and it doesn't require too much work. On newer K-8's and F7's that can serve longer and have lower flying miles on the airframes, put the JFT's KLG radars and make them carry two SD-10's each.

This would immediately provide a massive punch as you can overnight increase your interception capability and add like 200 of these jets. In the future wars, BVR missiles are what would matter, not so much so the jet that fired them. The future belongs to radars and advance missiles. Physical manned jets will start to fade away from 2025-2030.

The K8s are already cleared for firing missiles. Although there is rationale for remotely piloted legacy/low end aircraft, as technology stands today there really isn't a substitute for human brain in the cockpit. So the discussion of a stop gap 4.5 gen fighter remains relevant. Maybe India should take your advice and instead of procuring Rafaels convert all the migs to carry advanced missiles?

 

[Dazzler]

Yet another idiotic thread,

@Jango @Manticore @Oscar close it plz.

 

[DJ_Viper]

The K8s are already cleared for firing missiles. Although there is rationale for remotely piloted legacy/low end aircraft, as technology stands today there really isn't a substitute for human brain in the cockpit. So the discussion of a stop gap 4.5 gen fighter remains relevant. Maybe India should take your advice and instead of procuring Rafaels convert all the migs to carry advanced missiles?

Please show me one proof that K-8s can fire BVR missiles. I think they can only fire WVR missiles. There was a strategy behind making them BVR-able, and that was making them as force multipliers.

Second, I don't know what world you live in, but the human brain has been replaced about 5 years ago. Boeing has smart jets being tested that don't require a pilot per say. But pilots are used to remotely pilot them till all tests and defects are fixed up.

Lastly, my comment was for Pakistan not India. India is acquiring different jets in numbers and 4.5+ gen ones. The topic was, how could Pakistan deal with that threat appropriately. Thanks

 

[BRITISH]

i think we should stick with thunder this bird later on more improved which will buy time for Paf
and we should avoid USA birds becoz they don't like cepec they are totally against to PAK thunder is good option and try improve deploymacy which will buy time for Pak
USA birds you will see no one gonna buy after few years

 

[Naif al Hilali]

K-8 Karakoram
General characteristics

• Crew: 2 (in tandem)
• Length: 11.6 m (38 ft 0 in)
• Wingspan: 9.63 m (31 ft 7 in)
• Height: 4.21 m (13 ft 9 in)
• Empty weight: 2,687 kg (5,924 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 4,330 kg (9,546 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Garrett TFE731-2A-2A turbofan, 16.01 kN (3,600 lb)

How can the K-8 incorporate anything larger than the Grifo radars from the F--7PG, if those?

 

[Cornered Tiger]

18 block 52 falcons
55 falcons a/b
70 thunders mk1/2
80 mirages 5
120 F7 P/PG

Your figures are wrong, search PDF for correct numbers.

Besides that, the PAF is/was hoping to procure 30-40 more capable fighters (IHS Jane's), ideally twin-engine and/or longer-range heavier payload fighters. PAF officials apparently told IHS Jane's that the Su-35 was of interest.

My bet is that Pakistan is seeking Russian permission to buy J-11Ds, 45 in number will be deployed for Maritime Support, Air Defence and Interdiction roles. 9 will go to CCS. 18 will be deployed somewhere in Coastal Area and 18 will be deployed in Kamra.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

With Mr. Trump prodding China to make her early moves, IMHO, she won't disappoint. Can't project PAF capabilities, but by 2020 her principal adversary, IAF, will face advanced Chinese fighters in this neighborhood. Who has the audacity to check the identity of the pilots???

We dont need f35 ... whats the use of plan when it is sanctioned at the time of war ...

Turkey had the dual experience of the proxy fighters under proxy pilots. That was the ultimate plan only to be subdued by the PLAN...