PAF participates in "Red Flag" and "Green Flag"

[Dazzler]

owcc,

My my my..........

Just because they are using the plane for more than two decades, they must be superior??

It will be much wiser for you to not to talk on a topic that you have no knowledge of. Ever heard of Combat Commander School? Do you know how many nations send their pilots to graduate from here and how many of them pass out?

When it comes to skills and tactics, it is appreciated all over the world even in US, Germany,UK and France. Red Flag is a good learning curve and both sides will learn from it. It does not mean that our tactics are inferior by any mean.

 

[Chogy]

It might be worth re-emphasizing that Red Flag is not a contest, never was. It is a training environment. In any training event, you win some, you lose some, but above all, you learn and gain experience. The bragging rights come from simply having "been there, done that" because it is truly spectacular.

The U.S. has contests like William Tell and others, but they are very different from a Red Flag exercise.

 

[behram]

owcc,

My my my..........

Just because they are using the plane for more than two decades, they must be superior??

It will be much wiser for you to not to talk on a topic that you have no knowledge of. Ever heard of Combat Commander School? Do you know how many nations send their pilots to graduate from here and how many of them pass out?

When it comes to skills and tactics, it is appreciated all over the world even in US, Germany,UK and France. Red Flag is a good learning curve and both sides will learn from it. It does not mean that our tactics are inferior by any mean.

How many nations graduate from there? Apart from Pakistan and UAE, who else do you know have done CCS? The UAE guy was on Mirage Vs(he's currently on Mirage 2000-9s, CPL from Peshawar Flying Club).

 

[fatman17]

PAF’s F-16 jets leave for ‘Red Flag’ exercise in US

KARACHI: Pakistan Air Force (PAF)’s squadron of F-16 aircraft have left with fighter pilots and technical crew for the US to participate in the forthcoming multinational exercises ‘Red Flag’ to commence from Thursday. As per an official handout, some of the leading air forces of the world, including the US Air Force, would take part in the maneuvers. PAF’s F-16s would fly across the Atlantic Ocean to participate in the exercise to further hone the skills of its combat and technical crew. Red Flag is one of the most reputed air force exercises in the world and it has been periodically held in the US since 1975. staff report

 

[air marshal]

Pakistan Air Force F-16 depart for Red Flag 2010

 

[HASANITALIA]

iss too olds our f 16

 

[Dazzler]

Pilots from Egypt, Libya, UAE, Qatar, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Oman, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia to name a few.

You talk about inferior training? Lets see....

"As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the Pakistan Air
Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that
the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked
as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the
world". As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1991, "it
leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far
behind".

-Sergey Vekhov
May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable
UK-based air defence magazine.

The PAF, although outnumbered by IAF(Indian Air Force), has at least
one qualitative edge over its rival: Pilot Training. The caliber of
Pakistani instructors is acknowledged by numerous air forces, and US
Navy pilots considered them to be highly 'professional' during
exercises flying off the USS Constellation (as co-pilots).

-Jane's International Defense (June 24, 1998)

And this is more relevant...

"Pakistan’s ‘Top Gun’ Base:

SARGHODA, situated 50 miles north of the famous textile city of Faisalabad in north central Pakistan, and within 150 miles of the Indian border, is the home of the Combat Commanders School which has earned it the reputation of the 'Top Gun' base of the Pakistan Air Force. It first came to prominence during the Indo-Pakistan Wars of 1965 and 1971 during which it provided a pivotal role in the air war with India. During the 1965 War S/L MM Alam became Pakistan's air ace. Flying the F-86, he shot down five Indian aircraft in one mission. Sarghoda was also a key target for the Indian Air Force during that time. In recognition of its efforts during these conflicts, Sarghoda has had the privilege of initially hosting all the new types of aircraft purchased by the air force, including the F-86, F-104, F-6, Mirage and F-16. The only exception being the F-7P. The base, under the command of its popular commander, Air Commodore Majeeb, is now the home of the No 38 Tactical Fighter Wing which comprises two squadrons 9 Griffins Squadron and 11 Arrows Squadron flying the F-16A and B, and the Combat Commanders School with two Squadrons, the Skybolts with the Mirage 5PA, and the Dashings with F-6s.

The school is under the command of G/C Riat, a veteran of the '71 Indian conflict during which he flew the F-86. The school and its instructors (which would also have a role to play in the event of a war) is run on a very similar infrastructure to the USAF DACT Training Bases, even including the school buildings themselves. The aims of the school are as follows:-

1 . Application of flying tactics.
2. Utilisation of weapon systems.
3. Standardisation and evaluation of various units.
4. Research and development in the field of tactics.

Pilots are selected by Air HQ in Rawalpindi normally after nine to twelve years of service. The successful graduates would hope to command a squadron in the rank of wing commander. The courses are tough and some selectees inevitably fail to make the grade. There are three courses, the combat commanders course lasting for 4/5 months, a 3 month weapons course, and a 4/5 week fighter integration course.

The CCS DACT course is unique throughout the world in its freedom as all combat missions are flown at tree top levels. All course pilots are fully responsible for the entirely independent formulation and execution of their mission plans and then drawing their own conclusions after the flight.

The importance of CCS at Sarghoda is highlighted by the fact that all foreign chiefs of air staff visiting Pakistan on exchange visits always include Sarghoda in their itinerary. This was the case recently when the RAF Chief of Air Staff Sir Peter Harding visited the school with his wife during a seven day exchange visit to Pakistan from October 11-18, 1991. He was most impressed with what he saw, and showed surprise at the freedom allotted to the student DACT pilots. An F-7P was flown in to Sarghoda from Rafiqui Air Base during his visit in which he was given a 30 minute flight.

( Mike Downing, Air Forces Monthly, April, 1992) "

 

[Dazzler]

Just one more plzzz...

""Every Man A Tiger
"Iraqi pilot training came from three sources: France, Pakistan and the former Soviet Union. Lucky for us, Soviet training proved dominant, with their emphisis on rigid rules, strict command arrangements and standardized tactics. Coupled with this centralized approach, the Soviets were suspecious of non- Russians and disliked Arabs. The Iraqi students were taught to take off and land their aircrafts safely, but otherwise their training was so basic, so lacking in advanced tactics, as to be useless. There was however a wild card. Not all Iraqi training came from the Russians.

Iraqi pilots, were trained well by their French and Pakistani instructors. Pakistan has one of the best, most combat ready airforces in the world. They have to; their neighbour to the east is huge, and the two nations, have a long history of hostilities. For Indian war planners, the Pakistan air Force is their worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world, especially the Islamic world, beause they know how to fly and fight.

On one or two occasions, I had the oppertunity to talk with Pakistani instructor pilots, who had served in Iraq. These discussions, didn't give me great cause to worry. The Russian domination of training prevented the Pakistanis from having any real influence on the Iraqi aircrew training program.

Still, there had to be a few Iraqi pilots, who had observed and listened to their mentors from France and Pakistan and the useless guidence of their inept leaders. It was those few, I was concerned about - the ones with great situational awareness and good eyesight, who had figured out how to effectively use their aircrafts and its weapons to defend their nation."

(General Chuck Horner (retd) and Tom Clancey. General Chuck commanded the US and allied air assets during Desert shield and desert storm, and was responsible for the design and execution of one of the most devestating air campaigns in the history. He also served as Commander 9th Air Force, Commander US Central Command Air Forces, and Commander in chief, SpaceCom. Book: Every Man A Tiger).

 

[behram]

Pilots from Egypt, Libya, UAE, Qatar, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Oman, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia to name a few.

You talk about inferior training? Lets see....

"As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the Pakistan Air
Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that
the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked
as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the
world". As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1991, "it
leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far
behind".

-Sergey Vekhov
May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable
UK-based air defence magazine.

The PAF, although outnumbered by IAF(Indian Air Force), has at least
one qualitative edge over its rival: Pilot Training. The caliber of
Pakistani instructors is acknowledged by numerous air forces, and US
Navy pilots considered them to be highly 'professional' during
exercises flying off the USS Constellation (as co-pilots).

-Jane's International Defense (June 24, 1998)

And this is more relevant...

"Pakistan’s ‘Top Gun’ Base:

SARGHODA, situated 50 miles north of the famous textile city of Faisalabad in north central Pakistan, and within 150 miles of the Indian border, is the home of the Combat Commanders School which has earned it the reputation of the 'Top Gun' base of the Pakistan Air Force. It first came to prominence during the Indo-Pakistan Wars of 1965 and 1971 during which it provided a pivotal role in the air war with India. During the 1965 War S/L MM Alam became Pakistan's air ace. Flying the F-86, he shot down five Indian aircraft in one mission. Sarghoda was also a key target for the Indian Air Force during that time. In recognition of its efforts during these conflicts, Sarghoda has had the privilege of initially hosting all the new types of aircraft purchased by the air force, including the F-86, F-104, F-6, Mirage and F-16. The only exception being the F-7P. The base, under the command of its popular commander, Air Commodore Majeeb, is now the home of the No 38 Tactical Fighter Wing which comprises two squadrons 9 Griffins Squadron and 11 Arrows Squadron flying the F-16A and B, and the Combat Commanders School with two Squadrons, the Skybolts with the Mirage 5PA, and the Dashings with F-6s.

The school is under the command of G/C Riat, a veteran of the '71 Indian conflict during which he flew the F-86. The school and its instructors (which would also have a role to play in the event of a war) is run on a very similar infrastructure to the USAF DACT Training Bases, even including the school buildings themselves. The aims of the school are as follows:-

1 . Application of flying tactics.
2. Utilisation of weapon systems.
3. Standardisation and evaluation of various units.
4. Research and development in the field of tactics.

Pilots are selected by Air HQ in Rawalpindi normally after nine to twelve years of service. The successful graduates would hope to command a squadron in the rank of wing commander. The courses are tough and some selectees inevitably fail to make the grade. There are three courses, the combat commanders course lasting for 4/5 months, a 3 month weapons course, and a 4/5 week fighter integration course.

The CCS DACT course is unique throughout the world in its freedom as all combat missions are flown at tree top levels. All course pilots are fully responsible for the entirely independent formulation and execution of their mission plans and then drawing their own conclusions after the flight.

The importance of CCS at Sarghoda is highlighted by the fact that all foreign chiefs of air staff visiting Pakistan on exchange visits always include Sarghoda in their itinerary. This was the case recently when the RAF Chief of Air Staff Sir Peter Harding visited the school with his wife during a seven day exchange visit to Pakistan from October 11-18, 1991. He was most impressed with what he saw, and showed surprise at the freedom allotted to the student DACT pilots. An F-7P was flown in to Sarghoda from Rafiqui Air Base during his visit in which he was given a 30 minute flight.

( Mike Downing, Air Forces Monthly, April, 1992) "

Sir, I'm sure most of the countries you mentioned must have come for FIS or to as aviation cadets to PAF Acadmey. However for CCS Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Iran have never come for CCS. My source is my father( ex-PAF Wg Cdr, No.9 Sqn CCS on F-16s, and currently a on a civilian contract as a Hawk/F-16 instructor pilot in Royal Bahraini Air Force).

 

[Dazzler]

Behram,

Thanks for info bro but I was talking about general training not the CCS one. The post was in reply to Mr. owcc who raised point of inferior training.

Regards

 

[behram]

Behram,

Thanks for info bro but I was talking about general training not the CCS one. The post was in reply to Mr. owcc who raised point of inferior training.

Regards

Oh ok sir, buddy-spike. Thanks and take care.

 

[Manticore]

---------- Post added at 07:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 AM ----------

 

[somebozo]

This has been anticipated since 2008 because PAF has been foundation up accquiring "Red Flag" compatible airforce gear.

By the way when Indians particiapted in 2008 Red Flag it resulted in a not so favourable opnion about their airforce and millitary gear.

So I am excitied to find out feedback about PAF pilots. It might be food for thought of Pak vs India fanboys.

The Saudis and Turks will also be present making an intersting community of friends.

Boy oh boy..Im excitied.

 

[owcc]

This has been anticipated since 2008 since PAF has been laying foundation up accquiring "Red Flag" compatible airforce gear.
By the way when Indians particiapted in 2008 Red Flag it resulted in their total disaster. The video is still somewhere on YouTube.
So I am excitied to find out the feedback about PAF pilots. It might be food for thought of Pak vs India fanboys.

Boy oh boy..Im excitied.

Your right about that Indias participation red flag was a total disaster

The sukhois couldnt integrate with NATO awacs as they have different codings

the sukhoi attack radar could only be operated in training mode as the actual fight mode had a code which the russians did not want the US to pick up

The IAF planes were practically flying blind as the other airforce teams enjoyed ground and air integrated nato systems which the sukhoi couldnt integrate with due to different codes

the PAF f16s wont face any issues though and should have a good run

 

[somebozo]

During the Gulf war, many talented brass of Iraqi airforce with a personal dislike for Saddam Hussien defected to Saudi Arabia where they were given new identities and given jobs as flying trainers. Saudi's didnt want to make this matter a public news for their own security. This resulted in a qualitive rebirth of Saudi Airforce. Large part of these defected pilots were Pakistani and French trained who are able to see the incompetency of Saddam and majority of IqAF pilots trained by soviet.

As one American war vertern puts it, IqAF flying planes were sitting ducks in the skies. In the end Saddam ended up recusing his IqAF by flying all his planes to Iran, which later annexed them.