PAF ordered to shoot down US drones invading Pakistani airspace: Air Chief Sohail Aman

[undercover JIX]

Contrary to the popular belief, numerous radar systems were functioning on that night but people tend to forget that US have the capability to jam and/or fool radar systems (of all sorts) through different technological avenues. We learned about the stealthy aspect of the choppers but we do not know much about other assets in use at the time which might have complicated the ability of PAF to notice something suspicious during the course of the operation.

This is coming from the ACM of the time:

"The Air Chief said the PAF was always ready to respond to any identified threat and there were SOPs in place for whenever the PAF radars noticed any unusual activity, and a process started automatically as information was also conveyed to the Chief of Air Staff. However, he said there were no SOPs for actions in response to telephone calls. This was an important distinction since in the case of the Abbottabad incident the PAF radars did not notice any unusual activity."

Source: Abbottabad Commission Report

The PAF was literally blinded on that day. There are additional clues and hints in the same report that imply as much.

Stealthy choppers were just a part of the equation on that day, I assure you. Much more was involved including a stealth drone.

And here some people are talking about detecting F-22 Raptors during combat situations with some kind of magical passive radar technologies. The gullibility of this nation....

I mean whom are these people trying to fool? US has developed and fielded the most powerful radar systems on the planet. They are also masters of developing incredibly powerful (passive) radar systems. And if they assert that F-22 Raptors can operate safely even in the most hostile of environments, we should take their claims seriously.

Understood.

I gather from your response that we are still technologically not capable of detecting and stopping any intrusion when it comes to stealth and jamming tech.
so what are the options we have? are we on US mercy and only option is Nukes?

 

[LeGenD]

Understood.

I gather from your response that we are still technologically not capable of detecting and stopping any intrusion when it comes to stealth and jamming tech.
so what are the options we have? are we on US mercy and only option is Nukes?

Pragmatism works, IMO.

US has the capability to crush Cuba in a span of some hours tops but this confrontation is unlikely unless provoked to extreme levels.

Pakistan and US have their share of disagreements and/or disputes but none are too serious to warrant an all-out war between the two sides. In-fact, a loss of a single drone is not significant enough to warrant an all-out war. US might deploy and utilize drones that are capable of operating at extreme altitudes and equipped with long-range weapons to deliver the killing blow where needed. Alternative is to utilize stealthy drones.

Nonetheless, this disclosure from ACM is not something new. Even in the Abbottabad Commission Report, the ACM (of the time) pointed out that PAF is always willing to respond when it notices something unusual in any part of the country. Problem is that Americans have extensive resources to monitor military-related activity in real-time and have the potential to exploit any gaps in them.

600 billion USD versus 10 billion USD defense budget; you do the math, bro.

 

[undercover JIX]

Pragmatism works, IMO.

US has the capability to crush Cuba in a span of some hours tops but this confrontation is unlikely unless provoked to extreme levels.

Pakistan and US have their share of disagreements and/or disputes but none are too serious to warrant an all-out war between the two sides. In-fact, a loss of a single drone is not significant enough to warrant an all-out war. US might deploy and utilize drones that are capable of operating at extreme altitudes and equipped with long-range weapons to deliver the killing blow where needed. Alternative is to utilize stealthy drones.

Nonetheless, this disclosure from ACM is not something new. Even in the Abbottabad Commission Report, the ACM (of the time) pointed out that PAF is always willing to respond when it notices something unusual in any part of the country. Problem is that Americans have extensive resources to monitor military-related activity in real-time and have the potential to exploit any gaps in them.

600 billion USD versus 10 billion USD defense budget; you do the math, bro.

Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

I dont think this is going to happen. Its just bravado.

Much weaker nations like Vietnam have fought valiantly against the invading Americans. I dont think Pakistan has the will or capability to fight Americans.

Drones crossing into Pakistan and firing weapons at targets is an act of aggression but over the past decade, Pakistan has only 'protested'. We still dont know how honest those protests have been.

At the same time, drones crossing from India have been shot down at once. This tells me that the country has capability to shoot down small targets but it does not have the will to take on a larger aggressor. Or is simply complicit in this crime.

Hi,

It is not a matter of will---but rater of NEED---it does not need to.

Supposedly you are not too familiar about the vietnam war---. It was not like an all out war---the U S congress had put too many restrictions on its military in vietnam---.

The restrictions were off for about 1 week---during Operatrion Linebacker 2---you need to read up on it---that will show the real face of the war and will also tell you how the vietnamese were begging and holding the american feet to stop the war---.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

I remember a few years back Iran brought down a US drone in Iran. All a country needs is a sincere and firm leadership. The sky is the limit for a country when it's leaders work in the interests of the people.

Later on, Iran lodged a protest at the UN over the incident of the US violating its airspace. If Pakistan does shoot it down the same actions should be taken after taking down the UAV. At the End of it the Iranians made the Americans look like incompetent fools.

 

[Hamza913]

Lmao yeah right, I'll eat paper if that happens and post pictures.

 

[Oruc]

Hi,

It is not a matter of will---but rater of NEED---it does not need to.

Supposedly you are not too familiar about the vietnam war---. It was not like an all out war---the U S congress had put too many restrictions on its military in vietnam---.

The restrictions were off for about 1 week---during Operatrion Linebacker 2---you need to read up on it---that will show the real face of the war and will also tell you how the vietnamese were begging and holding the american feet to stop the war---.

Sir I have every respect for US military power. But as you said the main question is of need. Pakistan does not need a war or conflict with US. But does US need it? Or a better question might be that at what length US political power and military power are willing to go to bend Pakistan to their liking? In my opnion use of force is not a good or needed option. Financial restriction along with international lobbying might be enough. But even in case of war one sided accord is not very likely. More or less US will also have to bend in some areas to Pakistan's demands.

 

[sparten]

@LeGenD I am getting quite annoyed at your tendancy to simply regurgitate manufacturers specs and sales pitch. As is evident from your posts.
American (and other) systems have a distinghushed history of being amazing in exersizes and abysmal in combat. The F4 Phantom for instance. And the AIM-7 Sparrow. Or the Tomcat. Or Patriots, whose praises you were singing a few months back/.

As for th F22, its a fantastic plane. However contarary to what you say

1) The F22 can be tracked easily using 1960's era VHF band RADARs. Everyone knows that. The F22 has L/O characteristics only in S and X Band. This is not thought of as a problem, since VHF can only track, not be used for fire control, although thats changing. To insist that it can't be tracked because the Americans say so, well even Lockheed can't change the laws of fucking physics.

2) The F22 was designed in the 1990's. To face then current threats. Its excellent against them. Problem is that threat evolution has gone in a different vector from what the original designers expected. Firstly, the increase in signal processing has been exponentially greater than expected. Meaning that current computers can isolate a useable track even from the most reduced RCS. Secondly, datalinks. Stealth is not all aspect. With RADARs spread all over a Battlespace, he'll be *** on to somebody. And with datalinks sending information to HQ in real time, chances are that he'll be picked up.

3) Datalinks also permit modern aircraft to LOAL (Lock on after Launch). Meaning that GCI or AEW assets tell the a/C where in space to launch a missile and it does, only locking on as it approchres, to minimise response time. The F22, does not have this capability.

The Raptor is the planets finest fighter, alongwith the J-20. But its hardly invincble.

4) The US jammed our RADARs during the Bin Laden raid? You kidding me? The raid was supposed to be secret. Jamming is obvious and its a big flashing warning that the enemtey about to come. For raids, which rely on swifteness and surprise, you don't use that. The most likely explanation is that they flew under the horizon and employed stealth. The only slight problem with it is i) several sources state that the PAF **did** send up interceptors and ii) the only really fuel efficient route goes smack over known PAF and AAD RADAR sites.

5) Finally you are imaging an Iraq-style air assualt. Thats very unlikley to happen. Since a Desert Storm or OIF style operation would no doubt be well over any plausible nuclear threshold. It would be Armageddon.

Short version. If the PAF has stated they will shoot down drones, I fully expect them to do so. And since its just equiopment, not no aircrew is at risk, a response will be reletively muted.

Hi,

The restrictions were off for about 1 week---during Operatrion Linebacker 2---you need to read up on it---that will show the real face of the war and will also tell you how the vietnamese were begging and holding the american feet to stop the war---.

Are.You.,Fucking.Kidding.Me?
Operation Linebacker 2? Where the losses to B-52 and F111 were so high that it was thought to be unsustainable and it was only poor NVA tactics (firing SA-2 in salvos) that saved the Americans?

 

[Mrc]

Short version. If the PAF has stated they will shoot down drones, I fully expect them to do so.

They wouldn't have said so ... that too without any stimulus... if they did not intend to carry out threat...
Drones have been there since 2006... they wouldn' just threaten to shoot them unless u definitely have made strategic calculus and decided it's time to up a notch...

 

[jacklord]

it would be nice to see this encounter as most probably pakistan air defence is incapable of attacking US flying objects specially F16s will not work against them.

 

[CriticalThought]

@LeGenD I am getting quite annoyed at your tendancy to simply regurgitate manufacturers specs and sales pitch. As is evident from your posts.
American (and other) systems have a distinghushed history of being amazing in exersizes and abysmal in combat. The F4 Phantom for instance. And the AIM-7 Sparrow. Or the Tomcat. Or Patriots, whose praises you were singing a few months back/.

As for th F22, its a fantastic plane. However contarary to what you say

1) The F22 can be tracked easily using 1960's era VHF band RADARs. Everyone knows that. The F22 has L/O characteristics only in S and X Band. This is not thought of as a problem, since VHF can only track, not be used for fire control, although thats changing. To insist that it can't be tracked because the Americans say so, well even Lockheed can't change the laws of fucking physics.

2) The F22 was designed in the 1990's. To face then current threats. Its excellent against them. Problem is that threat evolution has gone in a different vector from what the original designers expected. Firstly, the increase in signal processing has been exponentially greater than expected. Meaning that current computers can isolate a useable track even from the most reduced RCS. Secondly, datalinks. Stealth is not all aspect. With RADARs spread all over a Battlespace, he'll be *** on to somebody. And with datalinks sending information to HQ in real time, chances are that he'll be picked up.

3) Datalinks also permit modern aircraft to LOAL (Lock on after Launch). Meaning that GCI or AEW assets tell the a/C where in space to launch a missile and it does, only locking on as it approchres, to minimise response time. The F22, does not have this capability.

The Raptor is the planets finest fighter, alongwith the J-20. But its hardly invincble.

4) The US jammed our RADARs during the Bin Laden raid? You kidding me? The raid was supposed to be secret. Jamming is obvious and its a big flashing warning that the enemtey about to come. For raids, which rely on swifteness and surprise, you don't use that. The most likely explanation is that they flew under the horizon and employed stealth. The only slight problem with it is i) several sources state that the PAF **did** send up interceptors and ii) the only really fuel efficient route goes smack over known PAF and AAD RADAR sites.

5) Finally you are imaging an Iraq-style air assualt. Thats very unlikley to happen. Since a Desert Storm or OIF style operation would no doubt be well over any plausible nuclear threshold. It would be Armageddon.

Short version. If the PAF has stated they will shoot down drones, I fully expect them to do so. And since its just equiopment, not no aircrew is at risk, a response will be reletively muted.


Are.You.,Fucking.Kidding.Me?
Operation Linebacker 2? Where the losses to B-52 and F111 were so high that it was thought to be unsustainable and it was only poor NVA tactics (firing SA-2 in salvos) that saved the Americans?

A number of inaccuracies here. First of all, the F-22 may show up on VHF, but that DOES NOT mean it can be tracked. Furthermore, Active Cancellation works very well in that range.

Second, as radars have evolved so too has F-22. To think it is some irrelevant technology is a very foolish mistake.

Third, radar jamming can be selective in both time and frequency. You need to only jam the radar at a particular frequency for the window of time that heli is in certain range. Not to mention, most of our radars are Western in origin. You don't fight them with their own highly advanced weapons.

Having pointed out those inaccuracies, it is true that A-50U along with VLRAAMs can pose a credible threat to F-22. So too IRST. It is also to be noted that shortly after the Afghan mission, Chinese J-10s performed a joint airshow in Baluchistan along with JF-17. Coincidence? I don't think so. Insha Allah, PAF is on top of the situation in consort with other friendly forces.

 

[ARMalik]

A question -- when Russia deployed S 400 in Syria and imposed a no fly zone literally all over Syria, and parts of Turkey and Israel, why the mighty F-22 Raptors were not used? The US was using everything including cruise missiles to attack Syria. Then why the US did not use F-22 to change the tide of war when the US and its allies were facing defeat in Syria at the hands of Russians?

This is because the S-400 was able to detect the F-22, and the Americans knew it and thus never risked the F-22. Shooting down of F-22 by S 400 would have been a technological victory of Russia and thus the US would never risk it.

 

[Mrc]

A number of inaccuracies here. First of all, the F-22 may show up on VHF, but that DOES NOT mean it can be tracked. Furthermore, Active Cancellation works very well in that range.

Second, as radars have evolved so too has F-22. To think it is some irrelevant technology is a very foolish mistake.

Third, radar jamming can be selective in both time and frequency. You need to only jam the radar at a particular frequency for the window of time that heli is in certain range. Not to mention, most of our radars are Western in origin. You don't fight them with their own highly advanced weapons.

Having pointed out those inaccuracies, it is true that A-50U along with VLRAAMs can pose a credible threat to F-22. So too IRST. It is also to be noted that shortly after the Afghan mission, Chinese J-10s performed a joint airshow in Baluchistan along with JF-17. Coincidence? I don't think so. Insha Allah, PAF is on top of the situation in consort with other friendly forces.

the most vulnerable place for F 22 is base where it would take off from.... you take out the base

 

[sparten]

A number of inaccuracies here. First of all, the F-22 may show up on VHF, but that DOES NOT mean it can be tracked. Furthermore, Active Cancellation works very well in that range.

Second, as radars have evolved so too has F-22. To think it is some irrelevant technology is a very foolish mistake.

Third, radar jamming can be selective in both time and frequency. You need to only jam the radar at a particular frequency for the window of time that heli is in certain range. Not to mention, most of our radars are Western in origin. You don't fight them with their own highly advanced weapons.

Having pointed out those inaccuracies, it is true that A-50U along with VLRAAMs can pose a credible threat to F-22. So too IRST. It is also to be noted that shortly after the Afghan mission, Chinese J-10s performed a joint airshow in Baluchistan along with JF-17. Coincidence? I don't think so. Insha Allah, PAF is on top of the situation in consort with other friendly forces.

1) You are mixing up fire control and tracking. Tracking means to simply “see” and follow. For fire control, meaning to send Ordnance like a missile or gunfire toward, you need a much more powerful and accurate beam, hence use of S and X Band. Which is more or less a frequency the F22 is invisible in. Tracking the Raptor is no biggie, hell we did it in our exercises with it in 2009.

2) The F22 has not evolved. The tooling for the line was destroyed in 2007. The systems are hard wired. It’s not plug and play like the Viper or F35 or even JF-17.

3) With respect to jamming the issue is not technical ability its the tactical situation. You are right that jamming can be selective. However, jamming of any sort is an electronic emission and therefore will be picked up. And tell the target asset that enemy is trying to enter. Fine and ok for a major attack. Not so much for a sneak raid. And the way you describe would also Telegraph the location of the intruding aircraft.

4) I do not think that VLRAAM are the way to go, unless LOAL is used. At long ranges it requires a lot more power meaning chances of RWR picking it up are high. Plus at very long ranges the energy of the missile will be long reduced by the time it gets there, making it easy to avoid. One of the reasons for the lousy performance of the AIM-154 v fighters.

 

[jacklord]

F18 with JAMMING PODS and Awacs can jam any things ground and air and free fall from sky like scene from independence day movie .. IT WILL BE CLASH of HIGH SPEED TRAIN VERSUS VESPA PAKISTAN CAN NOT MATCH and tolerate US WAR MACHINE ..success probability is 00000.1%

The only way to stop any assault is S400 which is very hard to get from Russia due to indian influence.