PAF ordered to shoot down US drones invading Pakistani airspace: Air Chief Sohail Aman

[sparten]

F/A-18 needs a carrier to operate from. An AWACS needs a base. A carrier can be engaged with our hypersonic AShM's. A base with cruise and ballistic missiles. No one whose name is not Russia or China is stupid enough to think that they can go toe to toe with the US in and come out on top. They are going to hit the vulnerable bases.

 

[YeBeWarned]

See this if it helps u . https://goo.gl/Egd6yN

I think sending a low equipped fighter to intercept a Stealth Fighter will be a mistake , if we are truly looking to brought down a Stealth platform lets treat it like Cruise missile which has the lowest RCS . Ground based Radar ( if ) able to pick the signature of a Stealth fighter, you can easily set up a trap for it ..Serbians leave us a better example to follow

 

[MastanKhan]

@LeGenD
Are.You.,Fucking.Kidding.Me?
Operation Linebacker 2? Where the losses to B-52 and F111 were so high that it was thought to be unsustainable and it was only poor NVA tactics (firing SA-2 in salvos) that saved the Americans?

Hi,

Did it not make the vietnamese come back to the peace table?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hi,

Did it not make the vietnamese come back to the peace table?

Pretty sure.. Even Indonesia could carpet bomb Vietnam.. Even today.

 

[Mrc]

F18 with JAMMING PODS and Awacs can jam any things ground and air and free fall from sky like scene from independence day movie .. IT WILL BE CLASH of HIGH SPEED TRAIN VERSUS VESPA PAKISTAN CAN NOT MATCH and tolerate US WAR MACHINE ..success probability is 00000.1%

The only way to stop any assault is S400 which is very hard to get from Russia due to indian influence.

No one wants toe to toe with US... that's the beauty of having nukes... like NK which is using trucks run by burning wood (ww1 era) you can have many shortfalls ... but US will still think how much they really want to push you

 

[curious]

It would make sense investing in electronic warfare capabilities.
If PAF acquires a dedicated EW platform like the j-16D, it may be possible to jam or severely degrade the sensors of the f-22/f-35.
That should go some way to diminish the advantage of 5th gen fighter and "balance" the battlespace.

 

[undercover JIX]

Why we are jumping to F22/F35 scenarios, this is the final stage of no return and total destruction of this region. we need to be practical in threat analysis and discuss step by step. CIA, RAW, Mossad, Drones, Supply routes, sanctions etc........ all of you are more knowledgeable them me to have a realistic analysis instead of jumping on high horse and wiping out USA, Israel and India of the map in one go.

 

[LeGenD]

@LeGenD
I am getting quite annoyed at your tendancy to simply regurgitate manufacturers specs and sales pitch. As is evident from your posts.

Do you see me citing product brochures to complement my arguments in my posts? LOL

American (and other) systems have a distinghushed history of being amazing in exersizes and abysmal in combat. The F4 Phantom for instance. And the AIM-7 Sparrow. Or the Tomcat. Or Patriots, whose praises you were singing a few months back/.

Scores of citizens, journalists, lawyers and analysts perceived Vietnam War as a failure.

To relatively smarter minds (military officials in particular); Vietnam War offered a great deal of insight for developing new kinds of weapon systems and doctrines that would revolutionize conventional warfare tactics in the years to come. Consequently, American battlefield performance in the Persian Gulf War (1991) stunned the entire world.

Back in the days of the Vietnam War, some of the premium combat aircraft of the time such as F-4 Phantom II, F-100 Super Sabre and F-105D Thunderchief suffered numerous losses in the battlefield. In the aftermath, a new generation of aircraft emerged such as F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 and each has performed well in various conflicts around the world to date. In-fact, F-15 series aircraft have most impressive combat record in history.

You mentioned Tomcats in the list of failures. Are you kidding me? F-14 has a very impressive combat record.

PAC-1 system (intended to provide AA/AD coverage to key installations in the Persian Gulf War 1991) was premature in the aspect of intercepting ballistic missiles. Its successors in PAC-2 and PAC-3 (latest) represent a major technological leap in the role of intercepting ballistic missiles, with numerous kills in the battlefield. For example: http://www.operationtelic.co.uk/documents/32aamdc-oif-patriot-sep03.pdf

----

F-22 Raptor is the outcome of a wide range of lessons drawn from various conflicts around the world and designed to operate in the most hostile of environments. The true extent of its capabilities are classified but even its known aspects are sufficient to invoke "shock and awe" emotions in readers. You may ignore product brochures but you need to read this report: http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_32.pdf

Also, read the book from Bill Sweetman. Very informative.

As for th F22, its a fantastic plane. However contarary to what you say

1) The F22 can be tracked easily using 1960's era VHF band RADARs. Everyone knows that. The F22 has L/O characteristics only in S and X Band. This is not thought of as a problem, since VHF can only track, not be used for fire control, although thats changing. To insist that it can't be tracked because the Americans say so, well even Lockheed can't change the laws of fucking physics.

Imperfections of that article notwithstanding (see the responses below it); if you are referring to the 2014 incident, are you in the position to assert that the F-22 Raptor (in question) was not equipped with an RCS enhancer* at the time?

*Luneburg lens device

Additionally, is the technique (in question) reliable enough to ensure successful implementation of the KILL CHAIN process on time? Nope.

Food for thought:

1. EMCON
2. LPI
3. Non-emitting devices
4. APG-77

You may also find this discussion enlightening: https://www.quora.com/How-can-passi...itions-of-the-F-22-and-other-stealth-aircraft

F-22 Raptor is stealthy in numerous ways, not only in the aspect of its shape. Unless you have a great deal of understanding of the design and capabilities of this aircraft (unlikely), you are not in the position to assert with any degree of confidence that what kind of system is effective against it. At most, you will find some 'theoretical assumptions' on the web. Equally bothersome is the observation that you do not seem to be acquainted with the limitations of a passive radar system. Let me help you in this regard:

http://canadianartillery.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/9-Passive-and-Low-Frequency-Radar.pdf
http://aviationweek.com/technology/new-radars-irst-strengthen-stealth-detection-claims

You will notice that much of the emphasis in the aforementioned articles is on the shape of the aircraft but a complete lack of argument about other principles of stealth.

The arm-chair generals here may brag about some countermeasures against the most sophisticated stealthy aircraft in existence; did it ever occur to you that why Russia and China continue to pour billions of dollars in stealth-related projects?

2) The F22 was designed in the 1990's. To face then current threats. Its excellent against them. Problem is that threat evolution has gone in a different vector from what the original designers expected. Firstly, the increase in signal processing has been exponentially greater than expected. Meaning that current computers can isolate a useable track even from the most reduced RCS. Secondly, datalinks. Stealth is not all aspect. With RADARs spread all over a Battlespace, he'll be *** on to somebody. And with datalinks sending information to HQ in real time, chances are that he'll be picked up.

3) Datalinks also permit modern aircraft to LOAL (Lock on after Launch). Meaning that GCI or AEW assets tell the a/C where in space to launch a missile and it does, only locking on as it approchres, to minimise response time. The F22, does not have this capability.

The Raptor is the planets finest fighter, alongwith the J-20. But its hardly invincble.

The fact that Americans managed to develop F-22 Raptor in the 1990s, affirms only one thing: their defense sector is laughably ahead of the same in other states.

"A declassified 1985 CIA report correctly predicted that the Soviet Union’s first major counterstealth effort would be to develop new VHF radars that would reduce the disadvantages of long wavelengths: lack of mobility, poor resolution and susceptibility to clutter."

Americans anticipated this shit in 1980s; possibly earlier.

Americans have extensive experience in developing powerful radar systems (of all sorts) themselves. They don't need insight from Russia and/or China in regards to looking for ways to detect a stealthy aircraft; they are in a good position to experiment in all sort of ways themselves. In-fact, Australia have a 'more convincing solution' than either Russia or China at present.

F-22 Raptor minimizes its chances of detection in a number of ways and not only through its shape; I have provided some hints above. This discussion also offers meaningful insight: https://www.quora.com/How-is-that-t...iving-a-chance-for-the-enemy-to-trace-it-back

Another thing to keep in mind is that how USAF operates on the whole. It specializes in NETWORK-CENTRIC warfare techniques and takes cues from a number of surveillance capabilities at its disposal from land, sea and space to acquire unprecedented situational awareness in the battlefield. I do not have the time to explain to you how different kinds of [USAF] assets work in tandem to disable/destroy a wide-range of targets in an hostile environment. However, it shall be kept in mind that one of the earliest targets they are going to hit are the radar systems.

[Humor]If you are near a radar system and you learn about USAF operating in the region, run as far from it as possible.[/Humor]

On May 2, when the raid on Abbottabad occurred; stealthy choppers weren't the only assets in use. A number of other assets were employed to negate Pakistani defenses because the intent was to prevent an effective response from PAF by blinding it.

ACM of the time confessed in the Abbottabad Commission Report that none of the [active] radar systems picked up any unusual activity during that night. When the two F-16 jets were scrambled to intercept any intruder after the alert from COAS, their 'situational awareness' was terribly low at the time.

To give you an idea:

It might be possible to counter a semi-stealthy drone (RQ-170 for instance) in isolation with the right kind of defenses in the right place at the right time as witnessed in Iran (their account is dubious by the way because the possibility of malfunction cannot be ruled out) but when a wide-range of sophisticated assets are working in tandem [NETWORK-CENTRIC warfare techniques], they tend to overcome shortcomings of each other with their respective strengths and the resultant kinetic force is virtually impossible to tackle for a country like Pakistan. Even Russia and China are lacking in this spectrum.

---

J-20 is noticeably different aircraft than F-22 Raptor and capabilities of both are not expected to be similar. Chinese advances in the domain of stealth are not clearly understood but certain shortcomings are known. What we get to see on the surface does not tells us much about the level of sophistication beneath. Both China and Russia do not match US in this area, IMO. Nonetheless, Chinese advances in this area are impressive in their own right. Decent information here: http://www.css.ethz.ch/en/services/digital-library/articles/article.html/192616/pdf

4) The US jammed our RADARs during the Bin Laden raid? You kidding me? The raid was supposed to be secret. Jamming is obvious and its a big flashing warning that the enemtey about to come. For raids, which rely on swifteness and surprise, you don't use that. The most likely explanation is that they flew under the horizon and employed stealth. The only slight problem with it is i) several sources state that the PAF **did** send up interceptors and ii) the only really fuel efficient route goes smack over known PAF and AAD RADAR sites.

See above.

It may not be jamming but they made sure that our radar systems would not capture 'unusual activity' during the course of that raid. How they pulled it off, only they can tell.

5) Finally you are imaging an Iraq-style air assualt. Thats very unlikley to happen. Since a Desert Storm or OIF style operation would no doubt be well over any plausible nuclear threshold. It would be Armageddon.

Short version. If the PAF has stated they will shoot down drones, I fully expect them to do so. And since its just equiopment, not no aircrew is at risk, a response will be reletively muted.

I do not expect 'shooting of a drone' to lead to full-scale war (God forbid) but Trump administration is unpredictable and this kind of incident [might] open the door to "unforeseen consequences." If this administration is taking Afghanistan seriously then the best course of action is to define SOPs for them in regards to Pakistan.

A question -- when Russia deployed S 400 in Syria and imposed a no fly zone literally all over Syria, and parts of Turkey and Israel, why the mighty F-22 Raptors were not used? The US was using everything including cruise missiles to attack Syria. Then why the US did not use F-22 to change the tide of war when the US and its allies were facing defeat in Syria at the hands of Russians?

This is because the S-400 was able to detect the F-22, and the Americans knew it and thus never risked the F-22. Shooting down of F-22 by S 400 would have been a technological victory of Russia and thus the US would never risk it.

F-22 Raptors were active over Syrian airspace at the time.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/how-f-22-deconflicting-us-russia-operations-over-syria
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...over-syria-lockheed-martin-f-22-stealth-20110

It would make sense investing in electronic warfare capabilities.
If PAF acquires a dedicated EW platform like the j-16D, it may be possible to jam or severely degrade the sensors of the f-22/f-35.
That should go some way to diminish the advantage of 5th gen fighter and "balance" the battlespace.

Dude, seriously?

F-22 and F-35 are equipped with some of the most powerful sensors yet devised and you need to understand how they function. Go through all the links that I have provided above. This discussion will also help you: http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9268

For the F-35: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/unde...on-system-of-f-35-jsf-for-the-dummies.472240/

Even if you (somehow) manage to interfere with the sensors of a single aircraft (F22 or F35), it can draw information from other assets (F22; F35; AWACS; more). For example: http://www.sldinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/21st-Century-Approach-to-Tron-Warfare.pdf

Google "TRON warfare."

I think sending a low equipped fighter to intercept a Stealth Fighter will be a mistake , if we are truly looking to brought down a Stealth platform lets treat it like Cruise missile which has the lowest RCS . Ground based Radar ( if ) able to pick the signature of a Stealth fighter, you can easily set up a trap for it ..Serbians leave us a better example to follow

Right.

F-117 is nowhere close to the capabilities of F-22 Raptor, unfortunately.

1) You are mixing up fire control and tracking. Tracking means to simply “see” and follow. For fire control, meaning to send Ordnance like a missile or gunfire toward, you need a much more powerful and accurate beam, hence use of S and X Band. Which is more or less a frequency the F22 is invisible in. Tracking the Raptor is no biggie, hell we did it in our exercises with it in 2009.

In an exercise, F-22 seem to be operating at close proximity to other aircraft and relevant restrictions are enforced. Under these circumstances, they can be spotted and/or engaged.

In-fact, look at this story: https://theaviationist.com/2016/07/...hermal-camera-of-a-crime-fighting-helicopter/

A helicopter could see a [stationary] F-22 Raptor via thermal imaging. Unfortunately, their is no time for these kind of stunts in a war.

F-22 Raptor is designed to execute "first-look, first-kill" mission protocols in a war.

FYI:

Behind this first-look, first-kill capability is the F-22’s ability to establish superior situational awareness concerning target detection, location, identification, and lethality. The IAS provides the pilot situational awareness well Beyond Visual Range (BVR). Data fusion from multiple sensors is used to achieve longrange detection, high confidence BVR-Identification (BVRID) and highly accurate target tracking for BVR weapons employment and/or threat avoidance. The IAS directly contributes to increased survivability by providing threat warning and countermeasures against threat systems. This first-look, first-kill requirement depends on the ability to collect data from multiple onboard sensors, to develop a highly accurate track file on enemy targets, and to do so before the F-22 is detected by enemy sensors. Each target track file is continually and automatically updated without pilot intervention. Targets receive increasingly tighter tracking accuracies as they penetrate a series of tactical engagement boundaries surrounding the F-22 as shown in Figure 32.1. From outermost inward, these “globes” are called (1) Situation Awareness Initial Track/ID, (2) Engage/Avoid Decision, (3) BVRID Initial AMRAAM Launch, (4) Initial Threat Missile Launch, and (5) Threat Missile Lethal Envelope. The globe boundary concept, inherent in the tactical software design, supports both (1) efficient sensor usage and (2) automated sensor tasking. It provides the pilot adequate time to make tactical decisions (such as engage, avoid, commit weapons, or expend countermeasures) instead of controlling sensors.

Source: http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_32.pdf

You won't witness any dogfights or games in a war much like in the exercises; targets will be wiped out as soon as they are spotted.

2) The F22 has not evolved. The tooling for the line was destroyed in 2007. The systems are hard wired. It’s not plug and play like the Viper or F35 or even JF-17.

F-22 Raptor is evolving by the hour as we speak.

https://scout.com/military/warrior/...New-Weapons-Upgraded-AIM-9X-Missile-101452349
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-mip.htm
https://defensesystems.com/articles/2017/03/14/f22.aspx

 

[CriticalThought]

1) You are mixing up fire control and tracking. Tracking means to simply “see” and follow. For fire control, meaning to send Ordnance like a missile or gunfire toward, you need a much more powerful and accurate beam, hence use of S and X Band. Which is more or less a frequency the F22 is invisible in. Tracking the Raptor is no biggie, hell we did it in our exercises with it in 2009.

2) The F22 has not evolved. The tooling for the line was destroyed in 2007. The systems are hard wired. It’s not plug and play like the Viper or F35 or even JF-17.

3) With respect to jamming the issue is not technical ability its the tactical situation. You are right that jamming can be selective. However, jamming of any sort is an electronic emission and therefore will be picked up. And tell the target asset that enemy is trying to enter. Fine and ok for a major attack. Not so much for a sneak raid. And the way you describe would also Telegraph the location of the intruding aircraft.

4) I do not think that VLRAAM are the way to go, unless LOAL is used. At long ranges it requires a lot more power meaning chances of RWR picking it up are high. Plus at very long ranges the energy of the missile will be long reduced by the time it gets there, making it easy to avoid. One of the reasons for the lousy performance of the AIM-154 v fighters.

More inaccuracies. Provide a valid reference for the claim that Raptor's tooling has been destroyed. To use the words of @Oscar "Don't watch YouTube videos."

You can track it if it allows you to do so, and you can't if it doesn't want you to.

The jamming signal need not reach the radar. It just needs to interfere with the returning signal. You are ignoring the fact that US forces know Western Radars like the back of their hand. They have 1001 ways of subverting them.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pretty sure.. Even Indonesia could carpet bomb Vietnam.. Even today.

Hi,

What I was trying to say was that the U S military had its hands tied down by the U S congress in how to conduct the war in vietnam---what kind of heavy weapons it could use---.

The heavy losses for the uasf were due to strategy used---it was changed midway and the results were different---.

But the point is---once Hanoi came under the bomb barage---the air went out of the vietnamese balloon---.

Reader has to understand one thing---a more progressive your industrial base is---the more damage the USAF will do to you---.

Because every bomb will fall on an expensive target---rather than a mud hut---.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hi,

What I was trying to say was that the U S military had its hands tied down by the U S congress in how to conduct the war in vietnam---what kind of heavy weapons it could use---.

The heavy losses for the uasf were due to strategy used---it was changed midway and the results were different---.

But the point is---once Hanoi came under the bomb barage---the air went out of the vietnamese balloon---.

Reader has to understand one thing---a more progressive your industrial base is---the more damage the USAF will do to you---.

Because every bomb will fall on an expensive target---rather than a mud hut---.

Most of Vietnamese kills against USAF were A2A.

The US strategy was napalm and agent orange.

For ground support A4s etc proved ineffective so they started using slow planes and developed cobra.

 

[AbuzarIlyas]

Some top members from privileged class posting pessimism here. They don't know the mindset of current CAS which is a pro-subordinate cadre man. His mindset is not like other officers who prefer to settle their children abroad. Sohail Aman banned multiple dishes in airforce functions and approved first ever housing society for subordinates of PAF. Also increased quota of children of subordinate servicemen in the scholarships and other perks.

Mind it, he is something different. He knows the capabilities better than anyone here. Stop the useless debate. Purpose achieved, message served.

 

[LeGenD]

Most of Vietnamese kills against USAF were A2A.

The US strategy was napalm and agent orange.

For ground support A4s etc proved ineffective so they started using slow planes and developed cobra.

Actually no! US lost a large number of its aircraft to AA/AD assets in Vietnam.

But sir who says that in case of war Pakistan will only use coventional tactics? If USA attacks Pakistan it would be under the cover of attacking millitant hide outs. Those areas or hide outs are not used in any conventional way. They can use their air power but as reply Pakistan can also raise hell in afghanistan in more than one ways. Helping Talibans or forcibly sending back refugees etc. I am no expert but in my opnion war if it ever happens wont be conventional mostly. An all out dlibrate attack on Pakistani forces would make Pakistan Govt. a party to the conflict and that too on the side of the enemies. I dont think USA would like that.

At the onset of a major war, Pakistan has no choice but to employ its conventional assets to deter the aggressor. Once our defenses are breached and US army takes control of key installations and centers of power around the country, only then we would be in the position to employ "asymmetric tactics" to punish them. However, this will lead to further destruction and anarchy as witnessed in Iraq during the period (2004 - 2009). People can brag about insurgencies (and vice versa) but the greater reality is that Iraq is in ruins and continues to burn.

I get the impression from my homework that Operation Neptune Spear was a deliberate move to not only probe Pakistani defenses but to assess a wide-range of options in order to seize key installations and centers of power throughout the country in the advent of a major war. You might be aware of this disclosure: http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/the-pentagons-secret-plans-to-secure-pakistans-nuclear-arsenal/

Terrorist groups stand no chance at penetrating Pakistani strategic installations but US army is a different ballgame altogether. All the talk about "terrorist groups taking control of Pakistani nukes" is a PR cover for the highlighted plan.

HOWEVER:-

I don't think that US would be willing to go down this route unless Pakistan does something awful (which it won't). And a major military buildup in the region will raise quite a number of eyebrows accordingly.

Now, if Allah Almighty is with Pakistan, no harm will come to it. However, we need to be humble and realistic in our judgments. Allah Almighty have advised believers to be humble in their attitude:

"And do not walk upon the earth exultantly. Indeed, you will never tear the earth [apart], and you will never reach the mountains in height." (Surah Al-Isra; verse 37)

Pakistani are a emotional bunch with an inflated sense of defenses of the country unfortunately. Since childhood, we are indoctrinated with the claims that Pakistan Army is the best and it could have conquered the world under the leadership of Adolf Hitler during WW2.

It took me years to come out of such delusions.

Pakistan army is professional and good enough for regional threats. This is an achievement in itself with the resources we have at our disposal. We should be proud but not overconfident.

 

[CriticalThought]

Where there is smoke, there is fire

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...nd-forces-it-to-leave-syrian-airspace.532854/

 

[Fennec fox]

The US strategy was napalm and agent orange.

what a hyperbole.