PAF locked on 9 shoot only two...PAF official....0n 27 Feb....

[BATMAN]

Amazing knowledge and conclusion....Imran Khan was watching all this on HD widescreen, he may even had a joystick to override the pilot in case he didn't comply.

You thought mentioning HD wide screen will make you look wise.... may be ONLY among kids!
Talking logically, Pilots are wired to ground, so little less than HD would do as well,

On the Joy stick, he's notorious in that dimension, so who knows, and i don't care.

Reference to the TV program on defense day, even the AM stated with expressions ''he obeyed the (unfair) orders from above, but next time similar requests may no be possible to serve'.

Similar revelations were made by the WC (Rana), where he stated 'he was blocked to give clearance to pilots to fire, otherwise pilots had 9 locks and he was sure all would score a kill each' situation as well came to him as a surprise. So it's no brainy to understand that pilot team was least informed.... of India's abilities to turn lost wars into victories in closed rooms far from war zone, and the kind of UNDO orders they are going to receive, once behind enemy lines.

If Pilots knew that they are flying into no fly zone enforced by enemy SAMs (remember Indian mi-35) they would have done it easy way and even more effectively, if had not already refused to fly.

It's clearer than daylight, that some one on ground as well more authoritative than AM was dictating AM and making him feel jack ***, in front of his team.

Last but not least, only jack *** would not capitalize on air superiority vs. enemy like India, who will not spare a straw in Pakistan, once they have it. Bombing children school was on example. I can say much more here but I leave it to public to state, how would they react if the school of their children was bombed using Israeli SoW by Indians.

 

[Windjammer]

You thought mentioning HD wide screen will make you look wise.... may be ONLY among kids!
Talking logically, Pilots are wired to ground, so little less than HD would do as well,

On the Joy stick, he's notorious in that dimension, so who knows, and i don't care.

Reference to the TV program on defense day, even the AM stated with expressions ''he obeyed the (unfair) orders from above, but next time similar requests may no be possible to serve'.

Similar revelations were made by the WC (Rana), where he stated 'he was blocked to give clearance to pilots to fire, otherwise pilots had 9 locks and he was sure all would score a kill each' situation as well came to him as a surprise. So it's no brainy to believe that pilot team was least informed of India's abilities to turn lost wars into victories in closed rooms, far from war zone.
If Pilots knew that they are flying into no fly zone enforced by enemy SAMs (remember Indian mi-35) they would have done it easy way and even more effectively, if had not already refused to fly.

It's clearer than daylight, that some one on ground as well more authoritative than AM was dictating AM and making him feel jack ***, in front of his team.

You are trying too hard without making any sense at all.
Pilots are indeed in contact with the control tower and not PMs office.
If you really believe that the pilot without prior plans and briefings launches his weapons and then tells his superiors that he has executed the attack...who then inform the PM, who then orders to abort....then you must be playing some video game my friend and i will leave you to enjoy and have fun.

 

[BATMAN]

You are trying too hard without making any sense at all.
Pilots are indeed in contact with the control tower and not PMs office.
If you really believe that the pilot without prior plans and briefings launches his weapons and then tells his superiors that he has executed the attack...who then inform the PM, who then orders to abort....then you must be playing some video game my friend and i will leave you to enjoy and have fun.

Weapon launch was all planned, but don't tell me pilot as well was told that once weapon reached certain proximity, it shall be diverted to the near by bushes. Otherwise, hell would break.
Out their is electronic jamming, any communication could fail and than what?
Too much risk, we practically hung the hell on a thin hair.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Pilots are indeed in contact with the control tower and not PMs office.

And control tower directed by A.M who'is on direct line with P.M house.

It was a chain...

Weapon launch was all planned, but don't tell me pilot as well was told that once weapon reached certain proximity, it shall be diverted to the near by bushes. Otherwise, hell would break.
Out their is electronic jamming, any communication could fail and than what?
Too much risk, we practically hung the hell on a thin hair.

Not agreed...they directed only one or two from locked locations rest hit on spot....refer leaked call.

 

[BATMAN]

It wasn't even a war!

 

[Windjammer]

Weapon launch was all planned, but don't tell me pilot as well was told that once weapon reached certain proximity, it shall be diverted to the near by bushes. Otherwise, hell would break.
Out their is electronic jamming, any communication could fail and than what?
Too much risk, we practically hung the hell on a thin hair.

It was all pre-planned to capture the target in the sight and then direct the weapon away from it.

 

[TheTallGuy]

What I see here is a deliberate but intelligent effort to malign the armed forces of Pakistan.

Since you have a certain background please do not treat others like me a "Bloody Civilian" those days are gone..time has passed...that same logic makes insecurities come out. do not be a dinosaur...there is no effort to disrespect or malign our armed forces.

I love my country...my armed forces...and respect them but that love makes me ask tough questions? your sentence above is a relic of time "Yes Sir"

Respect and get respect!

 

[BATMAN]

It was all pre-planned to capture the target in the sight and then direct the weapon away from it.

Thanks for the insight.... but why didn't IK refused to agree to such plan!
He was the PM... he should not have settled any less than conquest of Kashmir.
Bottom line remains, a well created opportunity is lost by poor decision making, only God knows what was the motive but how IK handled return of Abhinandan, my suspicious lies square on him.

 

[kursed]

I like where this conversation is going. IAF wasn’t even using SDRs. A simple communication jamming technique gave up all PAF secrets, like oh my god, let’s ground the DA-20s, their purpose has been served.

Not one other aircraft used EW emissions that day but yes, PAF is now just a bunch of sitting ducks after preparing with EW, ODLs and related tactics for last 10 years. But yes, IAF which has still to integrate fleet wide ODLs and SDRs has now all knowledge of PAF.

I agree that it’s bad to underestimate the enemy but at least stop throwing the towel in already. They’ve their strengths and we have ours. And no, PAF wasn’t doing rounds releasing All sorts of emissions for IAF to capture on 27th Feb.

There’s a reason they are sending regular sorties of Poseidon on their side to capture all sorts of electronic emissions from Pak, since the day.

Pak only used enough EW as was needed. Nothing more.

All these years, I’ve wondered what sort of a mindset allowed Op Gibraltar or even Kargil, without anticipating enemy response or expecting them to play by our strengths - or to restrict the scale of ops as per our liking. It doesn’t seem all that surprising by seeing some of the responses here. Some of you’re practically expecting the enemy to play by your rules and on the field of your choice, whereby they’re not restricted by money, political support, internal politics or even war material. Amazing.

 

[MastanKhan]

It was all pre-planned to capture the target in the sight and then direct the weapon away from it.

Hi,

That was the worst decision ever---which will come to haunt Paf at a later time---.

The direction should have been targeted elsewhere from the begining---.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Hi,

That was the worst decision ever---which will come to haunt Paf at a later time---.

The direction should have been targeted elsewhere from the begining---.

you're nothing but a egoistic person, you could be wrong, and you're not expert in any defense related matters, you're not open minded person to accept good and valid statements by others, you're bad learner

 

[Signalian]

I like where this conversation is going. IAF wasn’t even using SDRs. A simple communication jamming technique gave up all PAF secrets, like oh my god, let’s ground the DA-20s, their purpose has been served.

Not one other aircraft used EW emissions that day but yes, PAF is now just a bunch of sitting ducks after preparing with EW, ODLs and related tactics for last 10 years. But yes, IAF which has still to integrate fleet wide ODLs and SDRs has now all knowledge of PAF.

I agree that it’s bad to underestimate the enemy but at least stop throwing the towel in already. They’ve their strengths and we have ours. And no, PAF wasn’t doing rounds releasing All sorts of emissions for IAF to capture on 27th Feb.

There’s a reason they are sending regular sorties of Poseidon on their side to capture all sorts of electronic emissions from Pak, since the day.

Pak only used enough EW as was needed. Nothing more.

All these years, I’ve wondered what sort of a mindset allowed Op Gibraltar or even Kargil, without anticipating enemy response or expecting them to play by our strengths - or to restrict the scale of ops as per our liking. It doesn’t seem all that surprising by seeing some of the responses here. Some of you’re practically expecting the enemy to play by your rules and on the field of your choice, whereby they’re not restricted by money, political support, internal politics or even war material. Amazing.

Discussions here take a political and analytical turn rather than technical. At some point one has to mention technically what and how some features actually work. Radars, missiles, avionics are discussed on most basic level here with most basic parameters. EW, ECM, ESM and ECCM are very interesting topics which have utilisation in air as well as land and sea. There are confidentiality limits too, but then again many articles have been written in main stream, available to general public (researchers) who can build upon that work. Putting 1+1 together, one can make out what is actually being discussed instead of discussing specific systems used in PAF EW aircraft which could breach confidentiality.
There is still a requirement of professionals from diverse backgrounds. The few professionals here are well versed in their fields no doubt, however everyone has personal lives and matters to attend to.

Amazing knowledge and conclusion....Imran Khan was watching all this on HD widescreen, he may even had a joystick to override the pilot in case he didn't comply.

There can be views based on speculation regarding the Command and control structure of an Ops. None of us from PDF was there to tell a minute by minute account as to what happened. The Professional Members here have constantly pointed out and discouraged members from leaking any information that is heard through friends, relatives etc serving Pakistan in Military uniforms.

This is the same when Generals, their careers and promotions are discussed - as if members were sitting in Corps Comd Meetings and were reading documentation sent to MS Directorate as well as discussing first hand with CGS and other related GHQ Dte - as to who should be promoted and on what grounds.

its best to sometimes leave things on speculation. Any information shared here can be wrong or right. The important thing to realize is Not to fall for "Anti-Pakistan leadership" sentiments such as PM doesnt know what he is doing, CAS doesnt know what he is doing, COAS doesnt know what he is doing and so forth. This is how doubt is cast into minds. I am not saying to worship leadership - humans do make mistakes, but if members who criticize Pakistan's leadership in any sort of way should ponder that why they themselves didnt make it to that ladder in Political or Military circles. If their suggestions and thoughts had weight, they would themselves be sitting among decision makers right now in prestigious Government offices.

Trust and faith in ability of Command and Leadership is very important. Soldiers give their lives on one order. They follow the order, knowing they are walking into jaws of death. Civilians cannot have that thinking pattern, but when doubts are pressed into minds through forced arguments, nothing good can come out of it.

 

[kursed]

IAF was not using SDRs, their comms were while on military channels were neither hopping frequencies, nor were they encrypted - all of this info is open source. Jamming them required the absolute most basic of methodology, been employed since the bloody 90s that threw them in a disarray.

PAF’s only emitters on the day were the DA-20s, heck even JF-17s didn’t even turn their EW kits on - under orders. They flew with the self protection pods post strikes, when we expected IAF to respond but they weren’t used at any point. That’s when you saw their pictures here and elsewhere. PAF and it’s mission planners aren’t exactly that nuts to put all emitters on, on day one and gift wrap it to IAF.

As for the apprehensions on DA-20s, yes, the other side only knows that we take EW seriously. And have trained with it for years. So, I don’t get the point why PAF should have triggered a nuclear war only cos the other side just found out that PAF had serious EW capacity. And this is a growing capacity at our end, doesn’t end with DA-20s.

I mean at least use some common sense. FGS. EW is just another weapon.


Also, please know that ‘trying’ to jam the adversary is where the game begins. It doesn’t end at it.

That’s where ECCM and jam-resistant equipment comes into play. Not to mention kinetic options to home in on jammers.

This was only step 01 in a ladder with literally hundreds of options.

Only few things I’d fault PAF for, one being post strike hoopla around Feb 27th. This should have been a far more somber affair than what it’s been turned into. If in the next skirmish, our pilots end up on their side, they’d parade them on television and undertake similar stuff which would be very hard for us to digest. This should have been undertaken extremely professionally. Not like this. USAF / Soviets had multiple skirmishes, we barely ever saw them being turned into a spectacle.

If you have to find a fault, this is a glaring one. Allah loves humility and I personally believe we have over done this.

 

[Signalian]

Honestly Liberation of Kashmir is impossible in direct action. we just do not have resources to storm the Mountainous Region of Kashmir. We would need to accumulate People's Volunteer Army (PVA) Type of Operations.

How many more to sacrifice.

 

[CriticalThought]

IAF was not using SDRs, their comms were while on military channels were neither hopping frequencies, nor were they encrypted - all of this info is open source. Jamming them required the absolute most basic of methodology, been employed since the bloody 90s that threw them in a disarray.

PAF’s only emitters on the day were the DA-20s, heck even JF-17s didn’t even turn their EW kits on - under orders. They flew with the self protection pods post strikes, when we expected IAF to respond but they weren’t used at any point. That’s when you saw their pictures here and elsewhere. PAF and it’s mission planners aren’t exactly that nuts to put all emitters on, on day one and gift wrap it to IAF.

As for the apprehensions on DA-20s, yes, the other side only knows that we take EW seriously. And have trained with it for years. So, I don’t get the point why PAF should have triggered a nuclear war only cos the other side just found out that PAF had serious EW capacity. And this is a growing capacity at our end, doesn’t end with DA-20s.

I mean at least use some common sense. FGS. EW is just another weapon.


Also, please know that ‘trying’ to jam the adversary is where the game begins. It doesn’t end at it.

That’s where ECCM and jam-resistant equipment comes into play. Not to mention kinetic options to home in on jammers.

This was only step 01 in a ladder with literally hundreds of options.

Only few things I’d fault PAF for, one being post strike hoopla around Feb 27th. This should have been a far more somber affair than what it’s been turned into. If in the next skirmish, our pilots end up on their side, they’d parade them on television and undertake similar stuff which would be very hard for us to digest. This should have been undertaken extremely professionally. Not like this. USAF / Soviets had multiple skirmishes, we barely ever saw them being turned into a spectacle.

If you have to find a fault, this is a glaring one. Allah loves humility and I personally believe we have over done this.

The problem isn't about what they measured directly. The problem is they will go back to the OEM to find out more. And they have cash and connections with them. We have called their attention towards an aspect they were previously blindsided about. That takes away a huge advantage from us. There is nothing wrong with it if we meet our strategic objectives. I am lamenting the trite manner in which the advantage gained by PAF was lost by the civil and military leadership and we descended further into subjugation.

In the next conflict the enemy won't just be prepared for step 01, he will be prepared for anything. But there are other possibilities. Now that they know how weak our leadership is, next time they might not send any jets within our airspace. The enemy understands the power dynamics within our country, and just how independent various arms really are. On the one hand, they will try their level best to infiltrate the patriotic branches. On the the other hand, their existing assets are making sure our foreign policy and decision making creates a total joke out of us. Soon enough, people will realize that there is only one constant when it comes to Pakistan - that we are ready to dance naked in front of the whole world upon the slightest indication given by America and its allies.

Khan and Bajwa might have gotten away with their daylight robbery if the state of the world was different. But their cowardice is further highlighted when it stands in sharp contrast to what other nations are doing in the world today. So we have cowards like the Saudis who can't do anything when their oil refinery is attacked. And we have the Turks and the Iranians who take no dictations where their national security is concerned.