PAF & IAF weapons procurement delay

[Gufi]

Some good reasons there. But kickbacks are also an issue for us, they're very well hidden in the military, but they're there and they're ugly.

True they are always present but they do not slow the process of procurement down. The issue here is procurement and delays in it. We have kick backs but it seems we get what needs to be done with minimum of fuss.

 

[MilSpec]

True they are always present but they do not slow the process of procurement down. The issue here is procurement and delays in it. We have kick backs but it seems we get what needs to be done with minimum of fuss.

That is because you do not have competitive evaluation in your systems and there are no set Air Staff Hq requirements for acceptance, instead you make the best out of what you can get based off single vendor systems narrowed down based on strategic, financial and political view points, which is extremely commendable.

 

[niaz]

That is because you do not have competitive evaluation in your systems and there are no set Air Staff Hq requirements for acceptance, instead you make the best out of what you can get based off single vendor systems narrowed down based on strategic, financial and political view points, which is extremely commendable.

One important point ignored in the discussion in this thread the India & Pakistan are not competing on level playing field.

Even since I can remember Pakistan has suffered from Foreign Exchange shortage. That is why while India had the luxury of choosing which ever military hardware her armed forces liked; Pakistan had to manage with the second hand equipment.

Additionally, most of the time Pakistan could not even afford to pay for the second hand equipment; thus Pakistan joined SEATO & CENTO to get the same as hand outs. This in turn resulted in Soviet equipment being denied to Pakistan. On the other hand India could purchase from UK as well as the Soviet bloc. After 1962 Sino –Indian conflict, US equipment was also made available to India; however even the spare parts supply to Pakistan was stopped because of the US sanctions following the 1965 war.

Therefore in answer to your comments; firstly, PAF does not have billions of dollars to enable it to ask for international quotations. Secondly, even if PAF had the funds available many of the state of the art hardware would be denied to us because of the political impediments.

Since we only have a limited number of options; IMO a long evaluation process would be an exercise in futility. Because even if the selected aircraft falls short of PAF requirements, nothing else is accessible. Hence PAF must make do with whatever can be procured.

 

[kaykay]

Procurement of PAF is effected by their limited budget but still they modernize their fleet from time to time. However on the other hand IAF has no problems reguarding the budget, but they are stuck in between either to get the aircrafts or manufacture them indigenously.
Tejas faces this problem, India wanted to do all the work by itself and the result is that even 3 decades later it still not inducted. And now they have put Rafale in same situation,0 they want HAL to manufacture them on which french aren't agreeing. So to sum up IAF's procurement could be increased easily just by careful planning.

No doubt there are some truth in your statement but at the same time don't forget that IAF has inducted 200+ 4+ generation aircrafts(MKIs) in the fleet in last 12-15 years. Then they have inducted atleast 31 Mig-29Ks( though for navy) and upgrades of Mig-29s to SMT standard and Mirages to -05 standard are going on presently. All in all, It looks like slowing of procurements because IAF almost tried to phase out 600 out of 700+ aircrafts fleet in short time with newer generation but if you see real procurements happened on ground in between than you have to agree that have added much much more though Its still a long way of go till all oldies get replaced.
Cheers!!!!!

 

[GURU DUTT]

That you did, but the man who was quoted is speaking truth, by the time the Rafale does come round we will also have new aircraft inducted, as might you but that's beside the point but still technically correct.

well bro IAF is not a sitting duck withowt rafales we still have latest upgraded MKIs , M2Ks ,Mig 29s ,Mig 29Ks ,JAGS , Mig27s,bisons which all are BVRs cabable and have a comminallity as IASF is already in process of making Derby and Python 5 combo coumpelsarry pakage for themall for air to air roles

now these are bieng backed by AESA based ground , aerostat and AWACS backed again by a maze of SAMs like Derby , Pythosn ,akash , Barak SR & LR amongmany others which are given a top cover by Indian israeli and russian spy sats

+ LCA,LCA MK2 ,FGFA are already on order

 

[Windjammer]

well bro IAF is not a sitting duck withowt rafales we still have latest upgraded MKIs , M2Ks ,Mig 29s ,Mig 29Ks ,JAGS , Mig27s,bisons which all are BVRs cabable and have a comminallity as IASF is already in process of making Derby and Python 5 combo coumpelsarry pakage for themall for air to air roles

now these are bieng backed by AESA based ground , aerostat and AWACS backed again by a maze of SAMs like Derby , Pythosn ,akash , Barak SR & LR amongmany others which are given a top cover by Indian israeli and russian spy sats

+ LCA,LCA MK2 ,FGFA are already on order

Guru Bahi, you seem to copy paste same lines in every related thread, let me give you a very basic example, despite all their hi-tech gadgets and firepower, Israelis may have ended up destroying half of Beirut but Hezbollah still managed to give the Israelis a bloody nose, imagine if Hezbollah or the Palestinian had some similar weaponry.....hope you understand........it's also worth asking what do all the above platforms have to show for their CV.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Guru Bahi, you seem to copy paste same lines in every related thread, let me give you a very basic example, despite all their hi-tech gadgets and firepower, Israelis may have ended up destroying half of Beirut but Hezbollah still managed to give the Israelis a bloody nose, imagine if Hezbollah or the Palestinian had some similar weaponry.....hope you understand........it's also worth asking what do all the above platforms have to show for their CV.

salaam jammerbhai kahan jamming kerrahe ho aajkal

kahir anyway bro i dont get it why on earth are pakistanies feel so embarresed to see indian airforce not doing enof to purchase there MRCA on time orwhy LCA is late ?

i dont haveanything against anyone andyou know it sir

as for hezbullah or hamas well we all know iran , turkey and many arab nations are supplying them with wepons covertlli as for imagining that they have equalli leathel weponslike israel well bro world millitarries dont work on if's and but's or imagination alone and we all know how israelsigel handed li rubbed nose of combined forces of arabs in 1967 and in sanai peninsulla how they humiliated equalli powerfull egypt but thats another story and off topuik here

thing is IAF is not in a rush as we dont see any major war for at least a decade if not more owr main pressure now is production ofmost leathel wepons in india it self and we are working for that ever since 1960s and that too on a shoe stringbudget and ever sobotaging and foriegn mall loving MOD & IA/IAF and of course owr political elite


despite al hat we have achievd a lot no one is saying that we arent late but buddy its better be late than never

cheers mate

 

[Diggy]

Pakistani delay reasons.

• Lack of funds
• natural disasters

Indian delay reasons.

• Lack of leadership and decision making
• red tape and kick backs
• lack of communication between different departments
• Constantly over estimating local production capabilities
• civilians interfering in military matters

how come there be no civilian interference after all its tax payers money involved here , and its an enormous amount of money worth billions of dollars. In india its the civilian govt which calls the shots , army is subservient to it. Wouldn't giving complete authority to armed forces would lead to corruption.

And you fourth point is completely wrong , we don't over estimate our capabilities if that was the case then we would have been buying tejas instead of going in for a global tender , but yes we definitely want to encourage our defence manufacturing capabilities so that we prepare a generation of local scientists and experts which could groom or train professionals for the future , this is how it works. Developing a generation of professionals with experience is the key
motive here.

These 126 multi role combat aircrafts will be our front line air defence for the next 30 years , so a delay is understandable and also dassault if i am not wrong escalated the price at the end moment deliberately when the deal was about to be signed.

your second point under the 'pakistan delay reasons' just made me go LOL , can you please explain the logic behind that.

 

[A2Z]

No doubt there are some truth in your statement but at the same time don't forget that IAF has inducted 200+ 4+ generation aircrafts(MKIs) in the fleet in last 12-15 years. Then they have inducted atleast 31 Mig-29Ks( though for navy) and upgrades of Mig-29s to SMT standard and Mirages to -05 standard are going on presently. All in all, It looks like slowing of procurements because IAF almost tried to phase out 600 out of 700+ aircrafts fleet in short time with newer generation but if you see real procurements happened on ground in between than you have to agree that have added much much more though Its still a long way of go till all oldies get replaced.
Cheers!!!!!

Yes indeed MKIs are a good additions and I would say that phalcon awacs are good toys as well. You say 600 aircrafts are in line to be phased out and as far as I know mig21 and mig 27 are the ones that IAF plans to phase out and their number is less than 600, are there some other aircrafts as well that IAF plans to phase out?
Do IAF has any plans for trainer aircrafts? The airforce is in dire need of new trainer aircraft.

well bro IAF is not a sitting duck withowt rafales we still have latest upgraded MKIs , M2Ks ,Mig 29s ,Mig 29Ks ,JAGS , Mig27s,bisons which all are BVRs cabable and have a comminallity as IASF is already in process of making Derby and Python 5 combo coumpelsarry pakage for themall for air to air roles

now these are bieng backed by AESA based ground , aerostat and AWACS backed again by a maze of SAMs like Derby , Pythosn ,akash , Barak SR & LR amongmany others which are given a top cover by Indian israeli and russian spy sats

+ LCA,LCA MK2 ,FGFA are already on order

Well as we are talking about the procurements i would say if IAF's procurements were as planned then there must be no mig27 or bisons in its fleet but still we are seeing them in skies and they are often coming done as well and i am not talking about them landing safely.

 

[kaykay]

Yes indeed MKIs are a good additions and I would say that phalcon awacs are good toys as well. You say 600 aircrafts are in line to be phased out and as far as I know mig21 and mig 27 are the ones that IAF plans to phase out and their number is less than 600, are there some other aircrafts as well that IAF plans to phase out?
Do IAF has any plans for trainer aircrafts? The airforce is in dire need of new trainer aircraft.

Well when I said about 600 'to be retired' aircrafts, I meant those who are either retired in last 15 years or to be retired with more new platforms in future.
IAF retired almost 150 Mig-23s with MKIs, Rest 120 MKIs will/are replacing older unupgraded Mig-21s. Then there are 120 Mig-21 Bisons(upgraded)+ 80 Mig-27s+ few older Jaguars which will be replaced by MMRCA+Tejas in next 10 years.
Also remember that IAF had only 100 odd 4th generation aircrafts 15 years back and now it has 300+ of same and keep increasing.

About trainer, IAF is no more in dire need of trainers as it has inducted hawks advanced trainer jets recently with atleast 80 in service now and plans to induct atleast 40 more in next 2 years. Things have changed a lot in last few years.

BAE Systems Hawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gufi]

how come there be no civilian interference after all its tax payers money involved here , and its an enormous amount of money worth billions of dollars. In india its the civilian govt which calls the shots , army is subservient to it. Wouldn't giving complete authority to armed forces would lead to corruption.

That is a very weird point you make. The civilian government are not the experts in military matters are they? The army should be able to fast track the equipment they need. By your argument the decision to get the Rafale was made after a criteria. Now the civilian government has taken so long hammering out a deal because of bureaucracy. If these jets are to be the back bone who will the huge orders of 5th generation be for? With the world thinking of 6th generation and moving to 5th generation already it seems wasteful to go for this now but 5 years ago it made perfect sense. That is where speed matters in the ever changing world of technology. Remember your country has to look beyond Pakistan to China which has many new platforms which will make the Rafale a very weak back bone.
And with land mass comes reduced dependence and increased ability to mitigate the effects of problems, study history before you start laughing it seems you need to understand things clearer.

That is because you do not have competitive evaluation in your systems and there are no set Air Staff Hq requirements for acceptance, instead you make the best out of what you can get based off single vendor systems narrowed down based on strategic, financial and political view points, which is extremely commendable.

the first paragraph has the response to your question.

 

[wiseone2]

You've been talking about this MMRCA thing since when? 2007? That's a fair delay.
And the man is right, we've inducted 2 new platforms since that date, and are continuing procurement of one of those.
We've got our new batch of F-16s, Jordanian F-16s and an entirely new platform the JF-17 and the next block is due, probably before the Rafale arrives in India we'll be talking about further batches and blocks of the JF-17.

Why is the MMRCA the sole metric for the Indian air force ?

they have been adding Su-30 MKI. they signed deals for upgrade of mirage-2000 and mig-29. they acquired c-17, c-130j, hawk trainers and mi-17s.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Why is the MMRCA the sole metric for the Indian air force ?

they have been adding Su-30 MKI. they signed deals for upgrade of mirage-2000 and mig-29. they acquired c-17, c-130j, hawk trainers and mi-17s.

It's not. This was solely in response to OP's notion that we somehow didn't add anything or that the MMRCA in general was no slower than other IAF procurements or PAF procurements, which is false. MMRCA has been going for quite a while.