PAF- Flight international ,16 January 1969.

[HAIDER]

Flight international ,16 January 1969.Sharing some pages of air war claims through the pages of history.

 

[wali87]

Well this article proves alot of things to our indian friends here. It was rather an intentional move by Ayub Khan to prove to the Bharatis the original number of losses. Solely because the Indians were not accepting their own losses and were exaggerating Pakistan's losses..

Also, Chuck Jeager was also present in Pakistan when India "tried" to invade Pakistan. He too stated the exact number of casualties on both sides.. which clearly prove the obvious.

 

[Donatello]

Well this article proves alot of things to our indian friends here. It was rather an intentional move by Ayub Khan to prove to the Bharatis the original number of losses. Solely because the Indians were not accepting their own losses and were exaggerating Pakistan's losses..

Also, Chuck Jeager was also present in Pakistan when India "tried" to invade Pakistan. He too stated the exact number of casualties on both sides.. which clearly prove the obvious.

Don't let these fool you.

For we are ever evolving and so are our enemies. We can't afford to rest and praise our past, for it has the power to remind us that past was real. Future is what we should be looking at.

 

[AUz]

Being a smaller Force,PAF did exceptionally well.As then PAF's chief (ACM Noor Khan) put it "We were expecting Indian invasion on International border by 1st September and therefore ,We (PAF) were ready for it.
IAF on the other side wasn't really 'ready' for the war with Pakistan.So,PAF Knocked IAF down within 4 days of starting of the war.In 1971,again PAF was victor over IAF.
But now,situation is different.PAF will have to work really hard to keep its superiority over IAF as it has maintained throughout its history (Whenever PAF and IAF came face to face).

Proud of You PAF

 

[Ganga]

Being a smaller Force,PAF did exceptionally well.As then PAF's chief (ACM Noor Khan) put it "We were expecting Indian invasion on International border by 1st September and therefore ,We (PAF) were ready for it.
IAF on the other side wasn't really 'ready' for the war with Pakistan.So,PAF Knocked IAF down within 4 days of starting of the war.In 1971,again PAF was victor over IAF.
But now,situation is different.PAF will have to work really hard to keep its superiority over IAF as it has maintained throughout its history (Whenever PAF and IAF came face to face).

Proud of You PAF

Care to explain more?As far as i know the IAF had complete air superiority in east Pakistan and were flying freely in west Pakistan too.

 

[HAIDER]

Its very interesting that Pakistan and India, kinda always runs a ratio of 5:1. What does it prove ?

 

[AUz]

Care to explain more?As far as i know the IAF had complete air superiority in east Pakistan and were flying freely in west Pakistan too.

Well,I am assuming that you are a sensible man.You have basic knowledge of millitary & Strategic issues.So,in 1971 war,Do you really believe that Indian forces were 'victorious' in a sense that they overran Pakistani forces??? Pakistanis had lost the war on Eastern sector at that very minute when Indian generals decided to invade or engage Pakistan on Eastern sector.For your info IAF had 15 squadrons vs PAF 1 squardon in East Pakistan.So definitely IAF (15 squadron) 'overran' PAF( 1 squadron) in East and had 'Air superiority'.Don't you think that Nepal would've done the same ??

Now,coming to the West Pakistan, who told you that IAF was 'flying freely'?? IAF couldn't fly freely in (west) Pakistan cuz PAF was present there
You can read what US general, chuck Yeager, has said about 71' conflict. PAF enjoyed 3 to 1 kill ratio over IAF,General Yeager said in his book

 

[Ganga]

Well,I am assuming that you are a sensible man.You have basic knowledge of millitary & Strategic issues.So,in 1971 war,Do you really believe that Indian forces were 'victorious' in a sense that they overran Pakistani forces??? Pakistanis had lost the war on Eastern sector at that very minute when Indian generals decided to invade or engage Pakistan on Eastern sector.For your info IAF has 15 squadrons vs PAF 1 squardon in East Pakistan.So definitely IAF (15 squadron) 'overran' PAF( 1 squadron) in East and had 'Air superiority'.

Now,coming to the West Pakistan, who told you that IAF was 'flying freely'?? IAF couldn't fly freely in (west) Pakistan cuz PAF was present there
You can read what US general, chuck Yeager, has said about 71' conflict. PAF enjoyed 3 to 1 kill ration over IAF,General Yeager said in his book

The thing is that i don't believe in what the US officials have to say about this.At that time Pakistan was an important ally of the US against the soviets and one can assume they will be favouring Pakistan over India.Moreover India had soviet jets and the US will go to any extent to show them in a bad light,even if it means spreading wrong info.Reading reports made by US officials is not enough to convince me.

 

[TechLahore]

Just shows you didn't read the text. And if you did, you didn't comprehend it. It's not about Yeager saying this or that, it's the fact that the PAF flying certain numbers of aircraft in force after the conflict conclusively showed that IAF kill claims were nonsense.

 

[AUz]

The thing is that i don't believe in what the US officials have to say about this.At that time Pakistan was an important ally of the US against the soviets and one can assume they will be favouring Pakistan over India.Moreover India had soviet jets and the US will go to any extent to show them in a bad light,even if it means spreading wrong info.Reading reports made by US officials is not enough to convince me.

mmm Interesting but facts are facts sir.O.K,can you give me any source which says that 'IAF was flying freely in (west) Pakistani skies??

 

[Ganga]

I found some interesting literature

Attrition Trends
For the period of the war, the IAF also logged no less than 3937 combat sorties (fighters and bombers), not
including the combat sorties flown by helicopters or other elements of aviation. INAS 300 of the Indian
Navy also flew 106 sorties and INAS 310 also flew a number of Electronic Intelligence missions. The PAF
flew 2279 combat sorties [8] in total. As expected, claims by each side varied greatly and while the PAF
admitted only 19 losses, the Indian Armed Forces claimed as many as 73 aircraft kills, although the latter
would include kills from post war incidents and from Army Aviation as well. While the latter figure has
been scaled down over the years, disparities still remained. For example, the PAF could boast of 120 F-86F
(6 squadrons) during the 1965 war but had no more than 2 squadrons (Sqn Nos 15 and 16) of F-86F during
the 1971 war. While India claimed a larger number of B-57Bs, the PAF admitted no more than 4 losses to
all causes, including accidents. Yet, the PAF which started out with 26 B-57B [9], and 2 RB-57D/F before
the 1965 war (not including another two ex-USAF RB-57F on loan ), had only 18 B-57B and a single RB-
57D/F in inventory by 1971, although 2 flying accidents between the years were known. Pakistan had also
claimed to have lined up its fleet of five C-130s in order to prove that none were lost but once again, the
actual number of C-130s acquired was six, according to a veteran PAF author [9] . The credibility of
Pakistani versions has always taken a beating with incidents such as the MM Alam fairytale [7] and other
strange claims including ones that the IAF was operating MiG-19s and MiG-23s [14]. A retired Pakistani
General admits [10] "It appears that 1965 war was not rationally analyzed in Pakistan at all. In this regard
the Pakistani military decision -makers were swept away in the emotional stream of their own
propaganda !". As Air Commodore Jasjit Singh AVSM VrC VM (Retd), Director, Center for Air Power
Studies, also points out, demands for emergency supplies of additional aircraft [11] from Indonesia, Iraq,
Iran, Turkey and China, within 10 days of the war, was hardly supportive of the claim that the PAF had lost
less than a squadrons worth of aircraft in the conflict. The "Official History of the 1965 war" [1] puts
Pakistan's combat losses at 43 aircraft, although a lot of the former's information is derived from Pakistani
accounts. Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, a better source as far as the IAF's perspective was concerned, gives
the following revised attrition figures from his paper [6] ,

http://orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1965war_kills.pdf

 

[TechLahore]

Why compare numbers between '65 and '71. Much more accurate to compare numbers PAF proved in their flypasts soon after '65.

Anyway, you are free to believe what you will. Chuck Yeager has written extensively on this issue, as has Fricker and numerous other aviation experts. It's all in the books, in the journals and magazines for anyone to peruse. If you think the IAF had a superior kill record to the PAF in '65, you can hold on to that belief. Good for you.

 

[AUz]

@Ganga
WOW,So this literature you provided is written by whom?? Can you tell me?? Is Author a aviation expert like Gen.Yeager?? And techlahore is 100% right.Why comparing numbers of PAF aircrafts in 65 to PAF aircrafts in 71 war. Isn't it completely Illogical looking at the fact that PAF proved Indian claims wrong by flying 86 Sabres,20 canberras and 10 star fighters just after the war of 1965

 

[Ganga]

@Ganga
WOW,So this literature you provided is written by whom?? Can you tell me?? Is Author a aviation expert like Gen.Yeager?? And techlahore is 100% right.Why comparing numbers of PAF aircrafts in 65 to PAF aircrafts in 71 war. Isn't it completely Illogical looking at the fact that PAF proved Indian claims wrong by flying 86 Sabres,20 canberras and 10 star fighters just after the war of 1965

The fact that PAF flew 86 sabres after the war is something flight magazine is saying .Is there any independent proof or observation.The author of the report i posted has done extensive research and has consulted people on both sides of the border.Before 65 there were 6 squadrons and before 71 there were only two. This is a fact and is an observation.Where did the other planes go .Why were the other squadrons disbanded.Do you have the answer?The only logical answer to this is that the majority of them were shot down in the 65 conflict .One of your own retired general is saying that there has been a lot of propaganda on the Pakistani side regarding the 65 conflict .Do you have any answer ?Claims that India lost 75 aircrafts and Pakistan only 19 are nothing but bullshit propaganda.You are free to believe what you want to and i will believe what i want.

 

[Safriz]

In 1965 PAF pilots really were Courageous warriors,with hearts of a Lion.They fought fearlessly against a worried enemy..The question remains...are they the same now?