PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming - TO BE CONFIRMED

[Armchair]

These R-27s are not from Ukraine, they are from Russia. As I was saying, the R-27 is the only BVR missile designed from day 1 to be modular. They have a huge potential to be upgraded and they have been over the years. Here is an interesting thing - the Russian air force uses R-27s and not R-77s in service mostly, unless for specific purposes they use the R-77s.

The R-27s are designed not just for use against bombers but against fighter sized targets. They are larger and heavier, and their aerodynamics are suspect to a limited extent. All this means they are likely to have lower pk (probability of shooting down an enemy aircraft). However, even with a low pk, if multiple shots are taken, and the MKI has the capacity to take multiple shots, one would have a decent weapon.

Not too long ago @Bilal Khan 777 was discussing the need for getting some Russian BVR for the PAF and integrating them with the JFT. It would be very foolish to underestimate the latest Russian missiles just because the older R-77s of the IAF were useless on the 27th.

What has been upgraded on the latest R-27s? Seeker and rocket motor definitely, if ECM and other components have been it is not known to me. If the rocket motor upgrade is near comparative to the AMRAAM, they will outrange Pak as the missile is bigger and heavier. How effective the seeker is going to be is another issue.

 

[Keysersoze]

Why not J-10 then Americans have deceived us trillion times in the past but we are still drolling over F-solahs. it really pains me to see how naive we are. After reading all the comments and finding out how happy Pakistanis are over a piece of unconfirmed news. Plus even if these blk-70 do come they will never be comming before the jf-17 blk3. How can we forget so soon? Just like in 90s Americans took money from us and then sanctioned us. It is coming again.


Ok. Sorry for those uncivil words, but that was the bitter truth what is said.

Ok that you don't see the advantage of Keeping western systems frankly shows your naivety. The best path for Pakistan is not to be in one camp exclusively. What happens if China changes it policy? Solo domestic production of assets is always fraught with difficulties. The BLK 3 JF17 will be a massive improvement over it's predecessors and reduces the logistical load having an aircraft that can do the job of the A5 and F7 (with a few exceptions) BUT it is not as good as a blk 70.

 

[BTruth]

Ok that you don't see the advantage of Keeping western systems frankly shows your naivety. The best path for Pakistan is not to be in one camp exclusively. What happens if China changes it policy? Solo domestic production of assets is always fraught with difficulties. The BLK 3 JF17 will be a massive improvement over it's predecessors and reduces the logistical load having an aircraft that can do the job of the A5 and F7 (with a few exceptions) BUT it is not as good as a blk 70.

" What happens if China changes it policy?" Yes, "IF" which they have not in the past 70 years and I think you know better than me how many times US has changed their policy. US is playing the same old trick with Pakistan, tell us good things (which I am sure will never materialize given the previous record of US and how fragile the US Pak relation is) which appease people in Pakistan who somehow feel a sense of achievement whenever someone from US praises them (as if US is their Master) and successfully make us promise them all the good things US wants for their interest. If we complete those task good and well, US will help us if they liked to otherwise ditch us, and if we prove to be the unsuccessful US will blame us for all the problem and sanction us. Same thing is going to happen again. Blk70 F-16s are never coming to Pakistan not even for a mutual exercise even if US signs a contract and even if we ourself pay for them and history has already proven this. Remember what happened to F16s for which we paid 3.4B$ in 90s??

 

[The Eagle]

" What happens if China changes it policy?" Yes, "IF" which they have not in the past 70 years and I think you know better than me how many times US has changed their policy. US is playing the same old trick with Pakistan, tell us good things (which I am sure will never materialize given the previous record of US and how fragile the US Pak relation is) which appease people in Pakistan who somehow feel a sense of achievement whenever someone from US praises them (as if US is their Master) and successfully make us promise them all the good things US wants for their interest.

There is no need to generalize as such with the people of Pakistan. At-least you have one flag of Pakistan beside UK, your residence.

 

[Keysersoze]

" What happens if China changes it policy?" Yes, "IF" which they have not in the past 70 years and I think you know better than me how many times US has changed their policy. US is playing the same old trick with Pakistan, tell us good things (which I am sure will never materialize given the previous record of US and how fragile the US Pak relation is) which appease people in Pakistan who somehow feel a sense of achievement whenever someone from US praises them (as if US is their Master) and successfully make us promise them all the good things US wants for their interest. If we complete those task good and well, US will help us if they liked to otherwise ditch us, and if we prove to be the unsuccessful US will blame us for all the problem and sanction us. Same thing is going to happen again. Blk70 F-16s are never coming to Pakistan not even for a mutual exercise even if US signs a contract and even if we ourself pay for them and history has already proven this. Remember what happened to F16s for which we paid 3.4B$ in 90s??

You use simplistic and frankly insulting terms. Has it occurred to you that the PAF wants the best tools for the job and will do what it needs to get them? I also read history and the first 40 F16's changed the game in the region. The embargo happened and the PAF wisely looked at options so they wouldn't get bitten again. But look at the reaction of Pakistan's enemies reactions when the F16 shoots down their planes. They go whining to the US saying "Look what your planes are doing. Take them away from Pakistan."

 

[BTruth]

There is no need to generalize as such with the people of Pakistan. At-least you have one flag of Pakistan beside UK, your residence.

I am not generalizing anything Sir, just stating a plain simple fact. There are more than 1100 replies on this thread and gather the response of Pakistanis and you will find that 90% of us seem more than happy to hear unconfirmed news despite knowing the fact that there are 90% chance that this will not happen. What would have been the response if someone from US state department had said that?
Most Pakistanis are justifying the trump's statement about annihilating Afghanistan. Tell me honestly If he had said the same words with Modi sitting beside him, would we still be justifying his statement? I know we need to have good relations with US, it is very important for us because US is a super power, but what saddens me is the slave mentality of most Pakistanis who suddenly forget all that has happened and is happening and start believing that US is their best friend while the fact is 100% against it.

You use simplistic and frankly insulting terms. Has it occurred to you that the PAF wants the best tools for the job and will do what it needs to get them? I also read history and the first 40 F16's changed the game in the region. The embargo happened and the PAF wisely looked at options so they wouldn't get bitten again. But look at the reaction of Pakistan's enemies reactions when the F16 shoots down their planes. They go whining to the US saying "Look what your planes are doing. Take them away from Pakistan."

Sir, I am not surprised or worried about the reaction of our enemy, its the reaction of our people who are losing their night's sleep just over a piece of unconfirmed news despite knowing the US Pak relations and how US has abused us in past with the same kind of promises.

 

[The Eagle]

I am not generalizing anything Sir, just stating a plain simple fact. There are more than 1100 replies on this thread and gather the response of Pakistanis and you will find that 90% of us seem more than happy to hear unconfirmed news despite knowing the fact that there are 90% chance that this will not happen. What would have been the response if someone from US state department had said that?

The response would be same that we are going to have potent & capable F-16s (upgrades possibly) to keep our enemy at bay... ref: 27th Feb. The mix of Western (US F-16s) and China provides us multiple options to deploy as per our strategy. PAF is not solely relying on single platform but the combo and that has worked better in our favour. There is no harm to have such mix of platforms and after all, F-16s have proven the worth time & again. Either you want to have relations or you don't, are the only choices and Pakistan is dealing for our own interests and so US. Nobody certified the news but, if comes to reality, its indeed a great news in regard to possible upgrade which will strengthen our line of defence.

Most Pakistanis are justifying the trump's statement about annihilating Afghanistan. Tell me honestly If he had said the same words with Modi sitting beside him, would we still be justifying his statement? I know we need to have good relations with US, it is very important for us because US is a super power, but what saddens me is the slave mentality of most Pakistanis who suddenly forget all that has happened and is happening and start believing that US is their best friend while the fact is 100% against it.

This is not about friendship nor anyone forgets any thing. Instead of judging people's mentality, bring something worth to discuss. Before IK visit to US, our relations were almost none and no one was saddened by the same. Currently, we are dealing in the same manners that US wants to have relations....Mutual interests & benefits for both nations on equality basis.. Trump is seeking Afghanistan peace via dialogue with Taliban and safe exit from Afghanistan... That is not annihilation at all. The concept of best friend or all, was the past and we have learnt a lot.

 

[Armchair]

could we get Ds and Xs, with the HMD that would be a new gamechanger. Wonder what helmet is coming with the JFT - my best guess is Chinese. With HOBS on both the JFT and the F-16s, and AMRAAM Ds and PL-15s, this would definitely be a step up.

 

[BTruth]

The response would be same that we are going to have potent & capable F-16s (upgrades possibly) to keep our enemy at bay... ref: 27th Feb. The mix of Western (US F-16s) and China provides us multiple options to deploy as per our strategy. PAF is not solely relying on single platform but the combo and that has worked better in our favour. There is no harm to have such mix of platforms and after all, F-16s have proven the worth time & again. Either you want to have relations or you don't, are the only choices and Pakistan is dealing for our own interests and so US. Nobody certified the news but, if comes to reality, its indeed a great news in regard to possible upgrade which will strengthen our line of defence.



This is not about friendship nor anyone forgets any thing. Instead of judging people's mentality, bring something worth to discuss. Before IK visit to US, our relations were almost none and no one was saddened by the same. Currently, we are dealing in the same manners that US wants to have relations....Mutual interests & benefits for both nations on equality basis.. Trump is seeking Afghanistan peace via dialogue with Taliban and safe exit from Afghanistan... That is not annihilation at all. The concept of best friend or all, was the past and we have learnt a lot.

Agreed to all you said except "nor anyone forgets anything". As far as judging the mentality is concerned, let me put it in another way.
Why do we react over joyously when someone from US says one or two good words for us? In my opinion, this way of thinking ultimately affects our decisions and we end up getting too little for doing too much and this is exactly what has happened in the past.

 

[Armchair]

" What happens if China changes it policy?" Yes, "IF" which they have not in the past 70 years and I think you know better than me how many times US has changed their policy. US is playing the same old trick with Pakistan, tell us good things (which I am sure will never materialize given the previous record of US and how fragile the US Pak relation is) which appease people in Pakistan who somehow feel a sense of achievement whenever someone from US praises them (as if US is their Master) and successfully make us promise them all the good things US wants for their interest. If we complete those task good and well, US will help us if they liked to otherwise ditch us, and if we prove to be the unsuccessful US will blame us for all the problem and sanction us. Same thing is going to happen again. Blk70 F-16s are never coming to Pakistan not even for a mutual exercise even if US signs a contract and even if we ourself pay for them and history has already proven this. Remember what happened to F16s for which we paid 3.4B$ in 90s??

I for one feel you have a lot of bitter truth in their regarding the psyche of a former British colony that still perpetuates the history that the British taught largely to its ruling class. The policies Macauley instituted to psychologically dominate us are still alive and well, and continues to shape our thinking.

 

[krash]

I have this question since you're a nuclear power state who you think has the balls to attack you or worse invade you?!

Unfortunately, it's not entirely as simple. While nuclear weapons do offer a considerable degree of deterrence they also offer that deterrence, for any sensible state, only from a threat and/or eventuality of a considerable degree. For example, the Indian war doctrine (Cold Start Doctrine) devised after the introduction of Pakistani nuclear weapons is/was specifically designed to circumnavigate the nuclear weapons threshold while inflicting enough tactical and strategic losses on Pakistan to win India an upper hand at the negotiating table. It was a plan to swiftly capture vital Pakistani territories without allowing enough time or inflicting enough losses for Pakistan to resort to using its nukes.

Feb 27th is a good example as well. Our nuclear weapons did not stop India from attempting the stupidity that it did. Our conventional ability and response is what made them scamper away. In the absence of this conventional ability, would Pakistan have been able to retaliate and show India its place? Not at all. Would Pakistan have used its nukes? Negative. Would India have slurped back the inflated threats that it had barfed in hopes of becoming the neighborhood bully? Negative. Would India have continued to try to bully us? Of course. Did their idiocy for domestic political plays risk dooms day? Of course it did but then you can't ever underestimate human stupidity.

I'd say save the money for something benefits the poor people better than wasting them on fighters tanks ships use them for infrastructure or supplement the low income people that's where the good investment

Unfortunately, this would only work on paper. History shows that those who cannot protect themselves cease to exist. The Muslim empire in Spain is a very good example, amongst many others.

Sorry if my wishes make no sense to you actually that's what I like for my country

They make perfect sense but unfortunately cannot come true in the world we live in.

Bending over is what you Pakistanis do best. Ask the Americans, the Saudis, the Chinese...

But weren't we the unreliable 'ally' backstabbing the US and the reason for their failure in Afghanistan? The unruly masterminds behind the years of painful screeching by the US and India, for that matter? Please pick a line and stick to it.

We did bend you over on the 27th, though. Is that what you meant in the first place? I'm sure you did.

CSF is compensation for logistical and military support given to US. They are funds that are directly reimbursed to Pakistan, which can use it any way it wants, including to buy US weapons. Don't conflate it with military aid, which is a completely different thing and does require the purchase of US weapons.

So, in fact, CSF can be used for things other than buying US weapons. That Pakistan used to either furnish its foreign reserves or buy US weapons was Pakistan's decision, not US.

CSF is a compensation currently withheld by the US for Pakistan. If using it to buy American weapons is required for its release then so be it. Getting you to wail about it here is just a bonus.

If there exists an Indian clause in the end user agreement, it will be taking the jets into Indian airspace and striking India... Not defending Pakistan.

I still don't understand how people, specifically the Indian establishment, can think that Pakistan would knowingly have spent billions of dollars for purchasing equipment that it could not use effectively against the only enemy that it would ever really need it against? That whole dance around presenting that scrap of an AIM-120 was hilarious and quite a bit embarrassing.

Yeah yeah whatever keeps you happy.. doesn't matter at all..

Wonder how are these measures going to stop the PAF from whooping IAF again when they already couldn't the first time. Can't blame you for hoping though, what else have you got left?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Unfortunately, it's not entirely as simple. While nuclear weapons do offer a considerable degree of deterrence they also offer that deterrence, for any sensible state, only from a threat and/or eventuality of a considerable degree. For example, the Indian war doctrine (Cold Start Doctrine) devised after the introduction of Pakistani nuclear weapons is/was specifically designed to circumnavigate the nuclear weapons threshold while inflicting enough tactical and strategic losses on Pakistan to win India an upper hand on the negotiating table. In short, it was a plan to swiftly capture vital Pakistani territories without allowing enough time or inflicting enough losses for Pakistan to resort to using its nukes.

Feb 27th is a good example as well. Our nuclear weapons did not stop India from attempting the stupidity that they did. Our conventional ability and response is what made them scamper away. In the absence of this conventional ability, would Pakistan have been able to retaliate and show India its place? Not at all. Would Pakistan have used its nukes? Negative. Would India have slurped back the inflated threats that it had barfed in hopes of becoming the neighborhood bully? Negative. Would India have continued to try to bully us? Of course. Did their idiocy for domestic political plays risk dooms day? Of course it did but then you can't ever underestimate human stupidity.



Unfortunately, this would only work on paper. History shows that those who cannot protect themselves cease to exist. The Muslim empire in Spain is a very good example, amongst many others.



They make perfect sense but unfortunately cannot come true in the world we live in.




But weren't we the unreliable 'ally' backstabbing the US and the reason for their failure in Afghanistan? The unruly masterminds behind the years of painful screeching by the US and India, for that matter? Please pick a line and stick to it.

We did bend you over on the 27th, though. Is that what you meant in the first place? I'm sure you did.




CSF is a compensation currently withheld by the US for Pakistan. If using it to buy American weapons is required for its release then so be it. Getting you to wail about it here is just a bonus.



I still don't understand how people, specifically the Indian establishment, can think that Pakistan would knowingly have spent billions of dollars for purchasing equipment that it could not use effectively against the only enemy that it would ever really need it against? That whole dance around presenting that scrap of an AIM-120 was hilarious and quite a bit embarrassing.



Wonder how are these measures going to stop the PAF from whooping IAF again when they already couldn't the first time. Can't blame you for hoping though, what else have you got left?

very well written post which stands out as an article it self
all I can add is , if the conventional military strength and gap becomes too overwhelming then this fact alone negates the nuclear deterrence.
you have correctly pointed out at post Pulwama escalation by India through airstrike as one of the deliberate and calculated provocations which in Indian mind Pakistan was unable to respond conventionally and couldnt raise it to nuclear level as any justified retaliation has to be proportionate .. thankfully PAF not only proved them wrong but its proportionate retaliation was so great that it left Indians running to America complaining the PAF use of F-16s and crying the lack of Rafales

I have this question since you're a nuclear power state who you think has the balls to attack you or worse invade you?!

I'd say save the money for something benefits the poor people better than wasting them on fighters tanks ships use them for infrastructure or supplement the low income people that's where the good investment

Sorry if my wishes make no sense to you actually that's what I like for my country

in an ideal world without terror and tyranny but look at middle east.. did speaking and singing love and harmony save the people and infrastructure from Daesh or the combined paramilitaries and militias

dear
there is a French saying that either you pay your own army, or if you dont then be prepared to pay the army of your enemy.

DID you get that?



your post reminds me of Sura Anfal where our Creator advises us to have our steads and weapons of war ready and prepped to keep the enemy at bay.

 

[PWFI]

@Khafee

"Agaan la k sanu ishq dyan, te aap mithi niend sona ei.."

Could someone please translate it in Arabic

 

[ali_raza]

mashallah our khfee sahb is getting famous by day and night
his credibility is becoming rock solid
allah sehat de

 

[Microsoft]

I know its hogwash.. But i wish Pakistan really manages to acquire some decent western hardware in a public deal so that we don't have any excuse to slack off.

Relying on the incompetence of an enemy or generosity of an ally is a blunder as things are not always what they seem to be.

We have already committed this mistake twice, once in 62 and once in Kargil and have paid dearly for it. A lesson is long overdue.

As for US or for that matter Russia, its not in their interest to let India get to big for it's boots. We don't have an ideological, racial or religious common ground with either of them which could result in true strategic alliance. Nature of our relationship as always remains transactional.

We are so lucky that we have got access to all kinds of technology and hardware and we have to make hay while the sun shines. Look at China and one has to admire how far they have gone under such adverse circumstances by begging borrowing or stealing, while we rely on outsiders helping us time and again when it comes to military.technology.

What happens when US, Israel, France and Russia decide to stop supplying us in a scenario where we have to conduct another nuclear test or blow up some satellite in space.

At the risk of repeating myself for the tenth time, we should absorb as much technology while we can never minding the costs or penny pinching by our bureaucrats. S-400, Thad, F-21, Rafaels, EMALS, Drones get them all while you can along with whatever ToT and reverse engineer the rest. If sacrifices have to be made elsewhere then so be it.

Remember All Politics, Economics and Diplomacy is done on the back of hard military power. Without an unshakeable Military everything can turn into dust in a week

That's pretty cute. You are allowed to dream about reverse engineering anything once Tejas is being talked about by airchief and not Rafale.