PAF Deploys to Northern Territories

[Hulk]

There will be no war, India does not like to waste billions which it can afford but not right thing to spend on. Pakistan on other hand is currently chairman kangal bank.

 

[SQ8]

They must have realised that the JF-17 is not good enough for their Air Force.

Cheap shots, guess much better can’t be expected

Hi,

Just for a moment---let us agree that J10 & the JF17 are very similar---but the thing is that the J10 is about 5-10 years ahead of the JF17 in venues of integration.

What the JF17 would give to the pilot after 5 years from now---the Paf current pilot would be ahead of that time curve by 5 years on a J10---if Paf had opted for them---.

So---TACTICALLY---& STRATEGICALLY---the JF17 brings out an inferior product when compared to the J10---because of the TIME FACTOR involved---.

A cumulative 160000 hours of actual flight experience and 300 years worth of service time would weight in against that argument janaab.
So while you may know somebody, basing an entire post on a drawing room discussion or whatsapp hello would be jumping the gun.

Your angst against the PAF is based on a right instinct, just a very misplaced target. The “traitorous” acts you suggested end up being in procurement negotiations and deals.. kickbacks not included yet.
The JF-17 however, not just as a plane but as a project was the right choice to make and 8 courses of staff officers agreed to it.

 

[Tps43]

Read paf history book 99-2014 and you will know the details anyway the above statement is not correct

Even in 1988 1998

 

[MastanKhan]

Cheap shots, guess much better can’t be expected


A cumulative 160000 hours of actual flight experience and 300 years worth of service time would weight in against that argument janaab.
So while you may know somebody, basing an entire post on a drawing room discussion or whatsapp hello would be jumping the gun.

Your angst against the PAF is based on a right instinct, just a very misplaced target. The “traitorous” acts you suggested end up being in procurement negotiations and deals.. kickbacks not included yet.
The JF-17 however, not just as a plane but as a project was the right choice to make and 8 courses of staff officers agreed to it.

Hi,
Your post s fine----.

But the basic truth is---the JF17 is still 5 years behind the J10 in terms of integration---.

You cannot fight a war with wishes---or if the 8 batches agree---you fight a war with what you procured 10 years ago---trained on it day and night to be ready for the conflict starting midnight tonite---.

 

[Hayreddin]

IAF modern capable fighter jets ( su30s , Mirage 2000 , Mig 29s) are 350 -370 . And paf modern capable fighter jets ( f16 and jf17 ) are 180-200 in numbers . So ratio is almost 2:1 . And mind another thing iaf cant bring above whole air power to PAK border but we can bring whole on indian borders due to our geography . And dont forget latest radars , Awacs and SAM factor on pakistan side . The way our air defence batteries and air assets are spread around border , if IAF get in they wont get out and another thing my dear if war broke out they will get " pleasant" surprise in SAM factor too

 

[messiach]

Agreed.

The way our air defence batteries and air assets are spread around border , if IAF get in they wont get out and another thing my dear if war broke out they will get " pleasant" surprise in SAM factor too

 

[KAMDEV]

Move tanks to forward position.

Kharcha lagta hai, Koi mazak nahi.

 

[messiach]

It will be a paradigm shift.

And if indications on the forum are to be believed, Block 3 should shut the mouths of critics. This is in keeping with a passing remark of previous ACM when he said we cannot afford to make any mistakes with Block 3. Things hinted on the forum so far:

1. Better stationary to take off times due to new power pack.
2. Dedicated variants for specific roles.
3. Engine enhancements.

I think time shall give the best response to naysayers. @messiach do you have anything to add here?

 

[SQ8]

Hi,
Your post s fine----.

But the basic truth is---the JF17 is still 5 years behind the J10 in terms of integration---.

You cannot fight a war with wishes---or if the 8 batches agree---you fight a war with what you procured 10 years ago---trained on it day and night to be ready for the conflict starting midnight tonite---.

By that logic the 787 is behind the A380 in integration- yet airlines prefer it over the larger airplane.

The same way Hyderabad airport is behind Karachi in that it cannot accomodate a A380 but does it need to?

Something that many folks here miss are requirements in projects. You dont build a concrete super steel reinforcement bride over a 1 meter shallow gradient dip in the road if all that road ever sees and is expected to see is a sedan or bullock cart. Moreover, you don’t insist on a bridge when you can barely afford three drums of tar and gravel.

There is a major disconnect between Pakistani concepts of needs and wants. Thankfully there are those bulwarks in the PAF who understand those and stood up to those yes men and old schools who had similar ideals to what you are stating.
When your target market is $15000 driveaway cost for a everyday reliable deal that only has to do 10 miles everyday , you dont try to convince everyone that you need a $40000 luxury sedan.

Ive been doing requirements gathering for over ten years now, and you can tell who loads unnecessary requirements onto a project which 9/10 disagree and then you work with more informed people and those with influence to cur them out.

There were those in the PAF who wanted the J-11 as the mainstay at prohibitive expense to the budget when even visiting exhange officers from the USAF and RAF thought it idiotic. Thankfully, experience.. and the right experience prevails.

 

[Thorough Pro]

When you start something for the first time, you will always be behind an off the shelf product, but you do need to start somewhere, otherwise you will always be dependant on others.

Hi,
Your post s fine----.

But the basic truth is---the JF17 is still 5 years behind the J10 in terms of integration---.

You cannot fight a war with wishes---or if the 8 batches agree---you fight a war with what you procured 10 years ago---trained on it day and night to be ready for the conflict starting midnight tonite---.

 

[MastanKhan]

By that logic the 787 is behind the A380 in integration- yet airlines prefer it over the larger airplane.

The same way Hyderabad airport is behind Karachi in that it cannot accomodate a A380 but does it need to?

Something that many folks here miss are requirements in projects. You dont build a concrete super steel reinforcement bride over a 1 meter shallow gradient dip in the road if all that road ever sees and is expected to see is a sedan or bullock cart. Moreover, you don’t insist on a bridge when you can barely afford three drums of tar and gravel.

There is a major disconnect between Pakistani concepts of needs and wants. Thankfully there are those bulwarks in the PAF who understand those and stood up to those yes men and old schools who had similar ideals to what you are stating.
When your target market is $15000 driveaway cost for a everyday reliable deal that only has to do 10 miles everyday , you dont try to convince everyone that you need a $40000 luxury sedan.

Ive been doing requirements gathering for over ten years now, and you can tell who loads unnecessary requirements onto a project which 9/10 disagree and then you work with more informed people and those with influence to cur them out.

There were those in the PAF who wanted the J-11 as the mainstay at prohibitive expense to the budget when even visiting exhange officers from the USAF and RAF thought it idiotic. Thankfully, experience.. and the right experience prevails.

Hi,

You are being silly---. Your post is completely thoughtless and totally senseless and without direction---.

A major major weapons system is not a gradient or a one meter pillar---. It is a system that is used to counter the enemy's system.

Neither it is a 787 or an A380---.

The fighter aircraft has to do battle against another fighter aircraft---and not with itself---.

Secondly---your choice fighter aircraft needs to make the enemy cringe to make the fight---.

And as for experience---the right experience is only right---till another right experience comes into force---.

When you start something for the first time, you will always be behind an off the shelf product, but you do need to start somewhere, otherwise you will always be dependant on others.

Hi,

No---disrespect---.

When a mother is sick you don't look for a company that has just started making the medicine---. You go after a proven and tested name---unless you don't know any better and are ignorant of the fact---.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Agreed.

a little elaboration on that " Agreed " would be much appreciated

 

[GriffinsRule]

hi,

Strengthening the intake is a very minor issue---.

The wings of the JF17 had to be strengthened---. That was a major issue---amongst many others---.

What else on the JF17 needed HELP---we won't know because Paf would hide it---.

Having to restrengthen the intake and then be forced to completely redesign it points to a major design flaw in the J-10A ... its not the same as a wing designed with 6 hard points. If the JF-17 had 8 hardpoints at inception and then had to use six due to engineering and design fault, then you would have a point but right now you don't. The current JF-17 wing is fully functional and fine. If there is plans to strengthen it, its an upgrade, same as anything else.

Back to J-10, the fact that it took PLAAF well over a decade just to start producing them in numbers is a telltale sign of a substandard product bar its paper specs. Btw, you think PAF will hide flaws but the PLAAF will not do the same for the J-10?

How is that no other country has bothered to buy that particular aircraft? There are plenty of clients of prior Chinese-made aircraft out there but we know two of them opted for JF-17. Maybe they see the value to cost more favorable for one over the other, similarly to what PAF realized?

Anyways, this debate is going to be pointless since no one here knows what is in the J-10 better than the PAF, as they have evaluated the aircraft and come to the conclusions that its not needed. I will defer to them as they know what they are doing while we are dealing with conjecture.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Hi, but Mother is not sick and we have the vaccine for infectious attacks.
The only sickness is economy and the new company saves a lot of dough from flowing out of the country.

Hi,

No---disrespect---.

When a mother is sick you don't look for a company that has just started making the medicine---. You go after a proven and tested name---unless you don't know any better and are ignorant of the fact---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi, but Mother is not sick and we have the vaccine for infectious attacks.
The only sickness is economy and the new company saves a lot of dough from flowing out of the country.

Hi,

Just a " Chalak " answer---.

Having to restrengthen the intake and then be forced to completely redesign it points to a major design flaw in the J-10A ... its not the same as a wing designed with 6 hard points. If the JF-17 had 8 hardpoints at inception and then had to use six due to engineering and design fault, then you would have a point but right now you don't. The current JF-17 wing is fully functional and fine. If there is plans to strengthen it, its an upgrade, same as anything else.

Back to J-10, the fact that it took PLAAF well over a decade just to start producing them in numbers is a telltale sign of a substandard product bar its paper specs. Btw, you think PAF will hide flaws but the PLAAF will not do the same for the J-10?

How is that no other country has bothered to buy that particular aircraft? There are plenty of clients of prior Chinese-made aircraft out there but we know two of them opted for JF-17. Maybe they see the value to cost more favorable for one over the other, similarly to what PAF realized?

Anyways, this debate is going to be pointless since no one here knows what is in the J-10 better than the PAF, as they have evaluated the aircraft and come to the conclusions that its not needed. I will defer to them as they know what they are doing while we are dealing with conjecture.

Hi,

The J10 took time because it was the first major project for a modern aircraft---.

The JF17 is based on the enineering that the chinese learfnt from building the J10---. Use your brains youngman---.

There are too many civilians in the J10 production---actually all civilians---.

JF17 is a Paf project---