PAF can counter India’s new war doctrine, says air chief

[notorious_eagle]

RVV - SD , RVV-MD, Meteor..still outranging Aim 120

Range has a minimal impact in an A2A fight compared to the electronics, resistance and the mechanics of a missile. An IAF pilot would be a fool if he would fire his R77 at its maximum range, that is simply preposterous. An excellent pilot brings the adversary in his kill range and than fires his BVRAAM which is roughly around 50-60 km. Instead of the range, the mechanics of a BVRAAM and its resistance to jamming are more important. I have my bias towards the AIM120 not because the PAF fields it. Its because the sheer testing and the R&D that has been invested in developing this missile. Its the only missile out of the list that has been tested in real combat and has achieved success. I can assure you that in 2005 PAF pretty much tested all the modern BVRAAM's that were available in the market and the verdict was that AIM120 was simply the best one out there.

to answer you mr. PAF chief maybe for a few days you can control the IAF but eventually would dominate Pakistani skies in the event of war although i am not hoping for such a scenario in the future.

No doubt, in a long static war India will most likely be the victor. But this is contrary to what the stated doctrine is of the Indian Armed Forces. They are preparing themselves to fight a short war in order to avoid Pakistan's nuclear threshold. I am fully confident after looking at the balance of power between both the nations that Pakistan can easily hold its own against India in a short intensive war.

 

[indianspetsnaz]

Range has a minimal impact in an A2A fight compared to the electronics, resistance and the mechanics of a missile. An IAF pilot would be a fool if he would fire his R77 at its maximum range, that is simply preposterous. An excellent pilot brings the adversary in his kill range and than fires his BVRAAM which is roughly around 50-60 km. Instead of the range, the mechanics of a BVRAAM and its resistance to jamming are more important. I have my bias towards the AIM120 not because the PAF fields it. Its because the sheer testing and the R&D that has been invested in developing this missile. Its the only missile out of the list that has been tested in real combat and has achieved success. I can assure you that in 2005 PAF pretty much tested all the modern BVRAAM's that were available in the market and the verdict was that AIM120 was simply the best one out there.

your acting as if the US gave you their most technologically advanced BVR your AF got the C5 variant which is very capable but not the best AAM the US could have given you our R77,73,Derby and soon Mica/meteor will be more than enough to take down a couple of F-16's armed with AIM120's we have equal and if not better AAM's and in larger numbers and quite possibly better on a capability basis. the AMRAAM c5 and F-16blk52 is the only real major threat for IAF pilots but a larger fleet of MKI's MiG-29s M2K's MiG-21 bisons all armed with BVR missiles is a nightmare for the PAF

 

[Edevelop]

I think Indians forgot SD-10:

Not too sure about F-7PG, but, PAF Mirage iii and V are BVR Capable...

Rose Upgrade!

The integration of a new Italian fire-control radar, the FIAR (now SELEX Galileo) Grifo M3, gave Mirage III ROSE I fighters the ability to fire advanced beyond visual range (BVR) radar guided air-to-air missiles. PAF's standard short range air-to-air missile at the time, the AIM-9L Sidewinder, was integrated with the Grifo M3 radar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE

 

[MastanKhan]

you just have 18 of them

Plus the mlu's coming in---pretty much all the line of f16's will be capable in a very short time.

 

[ares]

Plus the mlu's coming in---pretty much all the line of f16's will be capable in a very short time.

Yes, it is short term advantage(3-4 yrs) till Meteor or R-77 ramjet makes it to IAF inventory.
Not to forget MICA missiles which though outranged by C5 offers an excellent IR option(Silent kill).

 

[rockstarIN]

Sir,
B
Detecting doesn’t mean defeating, Ambushes are usually done by low flying configuration interceptors and jammers and dummies can be employed to create ground clutter. Even if detected, BVR missiles do not ensure kills. If the combat reaches WVR, then its numbers and tactics, 8 F16’s can overwhelm a strike package 10 air interdiction Mirages and 6 mki/m29 flying air superiority, even if the stike package has to jettison its combat load to get into the fight, the interceptors have done their job and can dis engage. The objective is to foil the strike mission not necessarily play red baron.
Then BVR regime also lets PAF fire a salvo and disengage to upset the strike package missions if detected by their radars.

.

The same can be done by the attacking packages too.

I think in the air war, unless you have a credible SAM system...there is hardly any home advantages apart from POWs.

All surprises can be done by the attackers as well as the defenders. Its a clear open sky.

Not to forget the range/weapon load of the jets are also matters. Indian jets can refuel but not all PAF jets are capable for it.

 

[MastanKhan]

the overall main point is that the IAF has a plethora of BVR AAM's more than the 500 the PAF ordered for a handful of its F-16 fighter fleet the PAF has only had the AIM-120 for a short amount of time and you know how long pilot training takes and new training modules are needed for BVR combat it is a significant switch from focusing completely on dog fighting to BVR. India has R-27, R-77, R73 and has a long operational period with them we even placed them on our MiG-21's in fact it was the older BVR R-60 missile that shot down the atlantique in 99

the technology and quality gap expands even further since we are adding MICA and Derby missiles to our fleet and with the addition of Rafale India can get access to Meteor.

but to get back on topic now the PAF can pin down the IAF for only so long the qualitative and quantitative edge will prevail in a war scenario

Hi,

No---the main point here is that till yesterday---the iaf ruled the skies---today paf has that strike capabilities---. Till yesterday---the SU30 ruled the skies without impunity with its russian bvrs---today---it is nothing out of the ordinary---it is still a great aircraft indeed----but its fangs are not as effective any more---.

There will be no daring flights over pakistan any more by the iaf---the paf pilots have been training with bvr's for a long time now---. Flight simulators have indeed sort of balanced the playing field----but the other than that has levelled the field is the kill ratio of of th eaim120 over longer distances than its russian counter part---.

Now, I do understand that the rafale is coming in the future---we will talk about it when it gets operational---but for the moment, paf has regained some of its lost momentum.

 

[indianspetsnaz]

Hi,

No---the main point here is that till yesterday---the iaf ruled the skies---today paf has that strike capabilities---. Till yesterday---the SU30 ruled the skies without impunity with its russian bvrs---today---it is nothing out of the ordinary---it is still a great aircraft indeed----but its fangs are not as effective any more---.

There will be no daring flights over pakistan any more by the iaf---the paf pilots have been training with bvr's for a long time now---. Flight simulators have indeed sort of balanced the playing field----but the other than that has levelled the field is the kill ratio of of th eaim120 over longer distances than its russian counter part---.

Now, I do understand that the rafale is coming in the future---we will talk about it when it gets operational---but for the moment, paf has regained some of its lost momentum.

so a squadron of Blk52's makes you sleep safe at night? please bro we are upgrading our MKI's to next generation standards and MiG-29's are being upgraded to serve for another 20 years M2k's are being upgraded these 3 fighters alone make up more than 300 of the IAF fighter fleet way more than the ~100 fleet of F-16 the PAF operates and only 18 of them are a real threat to the IAF. MLU F-16 is nothing compared the the MKI in its current form and when we upgrade it to super mki standard its capabilities will increase tenfold the MKI is the best fighter aircraft operational in South Asia and arguably in all of Asia.

its only been at the most 2 years since PAF received AMRAAM's from the us and hold your horses cowboys you can't just have top notch experience in bvr in a short time addition of BVR training requires changes in training modules and it takes more than 2 years to be a bvr experienced force pilots are trained overnight ya know? remember IAF MiG-29 had gotten missile locks on patrolling F-16's during Kargil causing them to fly away its no wonder why the pak army and irregular forces were bombed to bits relentlessly by IAF M2K's,MiG-27's and Jaguars your AF did not have BVR back then and only now you guys are training with BVR missiles.

you guys operate the C5 not really that advanced compared to the latest AAM's of the world and only a limited number of them for 18 aircraft the chinese themselves have stated the SD-10 is less capable than the AIM-120C so yes the PAF has regained some ground but if it wants to really get in the IAF's backyard get more BLK52's and AMRAAM's because 1 squadron of them can only hold off 300+ equal if not better fighters.

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

I think Indians forgot SD-10:

Not too sure about F-7PG, but, PAF Mirage iii and V are BVR Capable...

Rose Upgrade!

The integration of a new Italian fire-control radar, the FIAR (now SELEX Galileo) Grifo M3, gave Mirage III ROSE I fighters the ability to fire advanced beyond visual range (BVR) radar guided air-to-air missiles. PAF's standard short range air-to-air missile at the time, the AIM-9L Sidewinder, was integrated with the Grifo M3 radar.

Project ROSE - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SD-10 is inferior to the AIM-120C as stated by the Chinese themselves which means its inferior to the R-77 and R73 missiles and perhaps slightly inferior to the R-27

not to mention on use with the JFT KLJ-7 radar it would need to be closer than needed for the BVR range since its a 70km range for a target of RCS 3m2

 

[SQ8]

You need to have enough experience with the BVRs. 2-3 years of experience is not good enough. You need to change the doctrine according to it. Tactics will change..lots of things. You can't fire missile lavishly for practice as it is costlier too.

What makes you certain thats all we have?

---------- Post added at 02:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 AM ----------

SD-10 is inferior to the AIM-120C as stated by the Chinese themselves which means its inferior to the R-77 and R73 missiles and perhaps slightly inferior to the R-27

You are sorely mistaken and underestimating to your own peril.
I can understand jingoism.. but there is a limit to it

 

[indianspetsnaz]

^^^ @Oscar

PiLi-12 Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile - SinoDefence.com

The missile was claimed to be more manoeuvrable than the Russian R-77, and approach the U.S. AIM-120A in general performance.

 

[SQ8]

^^^ @Oscar

PiLi-12 Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile - SinoDefence.com

The missile was claimed to be more manoeuvrable than the Russian R-77, and approach the U.S. AIM-120A in general performance.

I can assure you that information is outdated and incorrect.

 

[rockstarIN]

What makes you certain thats all we have?

---------- Post added at 02:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 AM ----------

Out of context, I'm not saying 2-3years not enough..its not they have only 2 - years of exp.

 

[Najam Khan]

The air chief’s statement about the critical role assigned to IAF in CSD is spot on. The CSD is itself an extended form of the U.S army doctrine of warfare in non-contagious battle space. The U.S and collation forces have implemented this strategy of autonomous fighting elements operating in non-contagious sectors in the past. Each fighting unit was provided required air support. The Gulf war and campaigns of Afghanistan are some examples of non-contagious battle space (Iraq was pretty much linear battle space).

Similarly, in case of India, the CSD’s theme is an autonomous fighting unit tasked with some high-value targets to be achieved in minimum time i.e before reaching the Pakistani Nuclear threshold. The role of IAF will be critical in both mobilization of men, equipment and providing air cover to the army units.

The CSD has too much expectations from IAF, firstly it has to neutralize the border patrol/interceptors/air defence units. Then it has to escort a large strike package (containing land forces and equipment). Then it continuously has to guard the land forces operating in sector X. Finally, for completion of their objectives IAF has to escort the package back to its base camp…all this is to be done under the Nuclear threshold bracket…which has significantly decreased after the development of Nasr and its Multi rocket launcher.
The implementation of CSD is only possible if a very large formation of strike package is leading the formation of strategic airlift platforms (C-17 and C-130). From the other side there is no or less opposition too, or more likely the Indians take advantage of element of surprise and execute such attack.

There was a time when the PAF considered encirclement of enemy as its only viable option. The induction of Aim-120 and SD-10 in PAF, the order of battle has changed. With PAF’s F-16 fleet capable of firing BVR missiles, an attrition warfare strategy can be adopted too. Similarly till the arrival of FC-20, SD-10 will be equipped on JF-17 and F-7PGs. In the latter’s case, an interceptor aircraft with BVR capability can become an imminent threat to incoming strike package.

In a limited war scenario, numbers of enemy fighting elements doesn’t matter much, it’s the counter-strategy and refraining enemy from achieving its objectives that matters. PAF has restructured its fighting units, AEW&C and ISR platforms only to refrain enemy from completing its objectives. The distribution of equipment among the Southern and Northern commands will be a key to counter the threat from the Indian side.

 

[rockstarIN]

Range has a minimal impact in an A2A fight compared to the electronics, resistance and the mechanics of a missile. An IAF pilot would be a fool if he would fire his R77 at its maximum range, that is simply preposterous. An excellent pilot brings the adversary in his kill range and than fires his BVRAAM which is roughly around 50-60 km. Instead of the range, the mechanics of a BVRAAM and its resistance to jamming are more important. I have my bias towards the AIM120 not because the PAF fields it. Its because the sheer testing and the R&D that has been invested in developing this missile. Its the only missile out of the list that has been tested in real combat and has achieved success. I can assure you that in 2005 PAF pretty much tested all the modern BVRAAM's that were available in the market and the verdict was that AIM120 was simply the best one out there.

.

Lol Pakistan tested all the BVRs available in the market and selected AIM 120?

Yes, AIM 120 is lethal but the point is what if you get the bullet not the guns. You need to get the jet/radar which is integrated into the specific BVR. There is no point you get MICA and can't fit the same into F-16s. BVRs always included in a package. There are exceptions fo AIM 120 as EF & Gripen, but you should have the same quality radar which can extract maximum advantages from the BVR.

Also to add in BVR fight, it also the altitude to be considered before firing the missile, not always 50-60km. i.e R-77 has got only 21 km range at sea level.

 

[SQ8]

Lol Pakistan tested all the BVRs available in the market and selected AIM 120?


Also to add in BVR fight, it also the altitude to be considered before firing the missile, not always 50-60km. i.e R-77 has got only 21 km range at sea level.

For the f-16's.. it was a no brainier..
The R-77's 21km at sea level is for a head on engagement.. take a climbing target.. and a tail chase. and see how it reduces.
the same goes for all missiles.
Missile motors are also a factor.. is it a dual motor(boost and sustainer) or just a large boost?
A large boost will make it get to the target faster and with higher KE but at expense of range..
One also has to consider the close proximity of airbases in this case.