PAC Spells Out Project Azm, FGFA Program, etc.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You've hit the nail on the head there. The problem isn't that there is a shortage of trained engineers and researchers. The problem is we are producing them in the hundreds each year (with a lot of them going abroad to improve their skills even more) but we don't have anything for them to do (once they graduate locally or internationally). This initiative ought to change that.

With the sudden improvement seen in higher education during the early 2000s we started producing a lot of highly skilled workforce (with our usual lack of foresight) but didn't think where they'll work once they graduate. We've been producing these people in a vacuum at increasing rates ever since. Academic research needs direction and can't function as a stand alone entity. We have essentially been training people to go do research abroad (likes of me included). If there is suddenly something all these engineers and researchers can do in Pakistan, believe me they will jump at the opportunity.

On a related note, I did hear some stories about how in the early 2000s military organizations did try funding research in universities but they often lost money in these endeavors. They soon stopped. This can be because our researchers were incompetent, or because these organizations didn't have an appreciation for how slowly academic research progresses. I would think the latter was more true.

For all her issues, I remember Reham Khan actually saying (a few years back when she was married to IK), "what's the point of spending on education when there are no jobs?" It's the same issue everywhere you go, e.g. in Canada many in the STEM field have to head to the US (or China!) for work.

The two lead PAF engineers responsible for repairing the damaged Saab 2000s did their PhDs in the UK. I suspect there are now quite a few of these guys in the PAF now who (having gained some insight into the time organic R&D takes in the West and subject matter expertise) now believe there's enough to start Project Azm.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Project AZM is a stretch goal for the PAF and much needed as well. The repair of the Saab 2000 sort of opened the eyes of the leaders within the PAF that their was an under-utilization of expertise within the organisation and resources were not being tapped. Couple that with the management experience from the JF-17 project, it was only a matter of time when PAF would start work on something in house. Exciting times ahead indeed

 

[Raider 21]

You've hit the nail on the head there. The problem isn't that there is a shortage of trained engineers and researchers. The problem is we are producing them in the hundreds each year (with a lot of them going abroad to improve their skills even more) but we don't have anything for them to do (once they graduate locally or internationally). This initiative ought to change that.

With the sudden improvement seen in higher education during the early 2000s we started producing a lot of highly skilled workforce (with our usual lack of foresight) but didn't think where they'll work once they graduate. We've been producing these people in a vacuum at increasing rates ever since. Academic research needs direction and can't function as a stand alone entity. We have essentially been training people to go do research abroad (likes of me included). If there is suddenly something all these engineers and researchers can do in Pakistan, believe me they will jump at the opportunity.

On a related note, I did hear some stories about how in the early 2000s military organizations did try funding research in universities but they often lost money in these endeavors. They soon stopped. This can be because our researchers were incompetent, or because these organizations didn't have an appreciation for how slowly academic research progresses. I would think the latter was more true.

50000 PKR a month for bachelor's degree holders and 70000 PKR for masters degree holders are the salary offers I recall for aerospace engineers in R&D. Not rocket science why most people would not go there and I'm talking about civilians...

 

[JamD]

50000 PKR a month for bachelor's degree holders and 70000 PKR for masters degree holders are the salary offers I recall for aerospace engineers in R&D. Not rocket science why most people would not go there and I'm talking about civilians...

Precisely. It's a tiny bit higher now 65ish I think for bachelor's. On the flip side I recently heard through a friend that AvRID hired someone with a bachelor's degree at 1.5 lakh. But they essentially poached them from AWC so that person probably had a lot of work experience. The point being made to me was that AvRID is negotiating salaries and its not just 60k standard package take it or leave it. I hope it's true.

 

[Raider 21]

Precisely. It's a tiny bit higher now 65ish I think for bachelor's. On the flip side I recently heard through a friend that AvRID hired someone with a bachelor's degree at 1.5 lakh. But they essentially poached them from AWC so that person probably had a lot of work experience. The point being made to me was that AvRID is negotiating salaries and its not just 60k standard package take it or leave it. I hope it's true.

I hope there is a change too. I'm talking about numbers since February 2018...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Precisely. It's a tiny bit higher now 65ish I think for bachelor's. On the flip side I recently heard through a friend that AvRID hired someone with a bachelor's degree at 1.5 lakh. But they essentially poached them from AWC so that person probably had a lot of work experience. The point being made to me was that AvRID is negotiating salaries and its not just 60k standard package take it or leave it. I hope it's true.

I hope there is a change too. I'm talking about numbers since February 2018...

If I could add another angle ... $100 m a year doesn't get you fancy imports (in terms of fighters) very easily, but it can fund 5000 engineers, scientists, etc at an average of $20,000 a year (i.e. PKR 2.48 million). Neither scenario is ideal, but at least one gives you a decent shot at having your own solution; while in the other, you're screwed.

 

[JamD]

If I could add another angle ... $100 m a year doesn't get you fancy imports (in terms of fighters) very easily, but it can fund 5000 engineers, scientists, etc at an average of $20,000 a year (i.e. PKR 2.48 million). Neither scenario is ideal, but at least one gives you a decent shot at having your own solution; while in the other, you're screwed.

As much as I'd like to be paid that salary, I think that is a false equivalence. Investing in human resource pays dividends WAY down the road. Furthermore, you are ignoring the cost of the actual industrial capital needed to make anything physical. Unfortunately, at least in the short-to-medium term, buying off the shelf will be cheaper. Which should explain a lot about our past and current situation. Someone has thought about the long term if they're willing to invest a lot in human resource. I am cautiously optimistic. You need a lot of "extra cash" lying around to invest in things like these and considering the current state of our economy I am wondering where this money will come from. This is the reason for the caution in my optimism.

 

[Raider 21]

If I could add another angle ... $100 m a year doesn't get you fancy imports (in terms of fighters) very easily, but it can fund 5000 engineers, scientists, etc at an average of $20,000 a year (i.e. PKR 2.48 million). Neither scenario is ideal, but at least one gives you a decent shot at having your own solution; while in the other, you're screwed.

You want to give servicemen with that kind of salary that is fine....but don't be surprised when civilians turn it down. I know a bunch in addition to myself who turned it down simply because we couldn't survive on what was being offered....

Didn't want to throw in a personal note but just giving out my experience.

Cheers !!!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

As much as I'd like to be paid that salary, I think that is a false equivalence. Investing in human resource pays dividends WAY down the road. Furthermore, you are ignoring the cost of the actual industrial capital needed to make anything physical. Unfortunately, at least in the short-to-medium term, buying off the shelf will be cheaper. Which should explain a lot about our past and current situation. Someone has thought about the long term if they're willing to invest a lot in human resource. I am cautiously optimistic. You need a lot of "extra cash" lying around to invest in things like these and considering the current state of our economy I am wondering where this money will come from. This is the reason for the caution in my optimism.

I agree, but that's exactly my point: that factor is shrinking, if not terms of just cost, then also in terms of access and control. Domestic development and production is costly, but the alternative is not only becoming generally cost-prohibitive, but also untenable as a whole.

 

[MastanKhan]

If I could add another angle ... $100 m a year doesn't get you fancy imports (in terms of fighters) very easily, but it can fund 5000 engineers, scientists, etc at an average of $20,000 a year (i.e. PKR 2.48 million). Neither scenario is ideal, but at least one gives you a decent shot at having your own solution; while in the other, you're screwed.

Hi,

Wars and nation's fortunes are not won just by " having a decent shot at having your own solutions---".

Wars are won by capturing opportunistic moments in a timely manner and propagating on that success in a fast and a furious manner---.

For the world of Islam---one example stands out---that of Mehmet---when he heard about the hungarian canon maker---who had the design to build an extraordinary sized canon---Mehmet jumped on that opportunity---the broken surrounding boundary walls of Constantinopole is a lesson for those who want to learn---.

Interestingly---the canon maker has gone to emperor in Constantinopole to do his bidding---.

Just because we can build it---does not mean it is what is needed today. The JF17 project is 8-10 years behind due to the failure of the Paf to get the French EW suite and other paraphernalia---.

How about project AZM---a 10 years delay would put it at 2040---so---what then---!!!

 

[khansaheeb]

i think it is almost impossible for us to develop 5 gen aircraft due to weak economy and less investment in education or research.russia is struggling with su57 and this project is in danger of ending although they have more know how than Pakistan to develop aircrafts.j20 seems to be best option for us .

Nothing is impossible.

Pakistan has brilliant scientists and engineers who are affordable and produce the results. As long PA controls and manages the project we will have it out in 10 years.

 

[Yaseen1]

Nothing is impossible.

Pakistan has brilliant scientists and engineers who are affordable and produce the results. As long PA controls and manages the project we will have it out in 10 years.

first we should develop a good 4 gen aircraft on our own without help from china then we can think of making 5 gen jet.we lack ability to develop powerful engine for such aircrafts

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

A bold step , in right direction too early to tell impact on job creation and aviation improvement but it is a tremendous project

If Pakistan-Turkey-Iran combined our knowledge and Defence manufacturing I am sure a tremendous 4.5 generation to 5th generation jet would be on cards

Going solo Pakistan still can do it but it would have been more impactful to do a Jet with 3 countries involved

R&D cost would have been reduced or better controlled

If USA is giving a waiver to India then Gloves come off !!!

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

Wars and nation's fortunes are not won just by " having a decent shot at having your own solutions---".

Wars are won by capturing opportunistic moments in a timely manner and propagating on that success in a fast and a furious manner---.

For the world of Islam---one example stands out---that of Mehmet---when he heard about the hungarian canon maker---who had the design to build an extraordinary sized canon---Mehmet jumped on that opportunity---the broken surrounding boundary walls of Constantinopole is a lesson for those who want to learn---.

Interestingly---the canon maker has gone to emperor in Constantinopole to do his bidding---.

Just because we can build it---does not mean it is what is needed today. The JF17 project is 8-10 years behind due to the failure of the Paf to get the French EW suite and other paraphernalia---.

How about project AZM---a 10 years delay would

The Sultan himself was a ballistic and ammunitions expert (All
Ottoman Sultans had to learn a trade to earn living, running the Saltanat wasn't meant for earning money)!!! Hence, he understood the value in that Hungarian engineer's IP!!! Anyway, the Sultan himself redesigned the cannon balls for the Shahi Top to attain a higher range with a better accuracy during the heat of the siege before the final assault!!! Take-away: to attain 100% results one needs to put his own grey matters into action; otherwise Tejas....

 

[War Thunder]

i think it is almost impossible for us to develop 5 gen aircraft due to weak economy and less investment in education or research.russia is struggling with su57 and this project is in danger of ending although they have more know how than Pakistan to develop aircrafts.j20 seems to be best option for us .

There is nothing impossible or close to impossible
Do you really believe success comes with having a giant economy or institutions? Or does it come with having Barakah of a good intention and hard work to match it?

"Allah ne insaan ke hath be neeyat aur koshish di hai
Kamyabi woh deta hai"

We will make it happen just like we always have. Be it getting a country of our own, fighting overwhelming odds on the border, making the nukes, the missiles, the JF-17.
There were always the doubters in every one of those...