PAC And China,s JXX/J14 Project

[zagahaga]

lol jxx cost 100mil no wayyyy. around 65 to 75 mil maybeeeeee

 

[TechLahore]

Get me a source which says it will cost 100M US$s, then we will talk.

And to add to what Taimikhan is saying here, it's not just about the amount of money, but far more importantly, payment terms. If Pakistan communicates a strategic priority to China concerning its need for the J-XX, I can assure you that terms will be put in place that make the aircraft affordable for Pakistan without it enduring any economic hardship. No question in my mind about this... and you just have to look at the history of defence relations between the two countries to figure this out.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Why the sarcasm ?

did i say something wrong.

Nahien Yaar, aap nae nahien kuch ghalat kahaa, mae hi ghalat thaaa, mae nae bak bak kafi ki, end result wahi aap nae batayaa jo aap nae pehlay post mae batayaa thaaa

 

[notorious_eagle]

Why the sarcasm ?

did i say something wrong.

Read what you said again and look at it from a neutral perspective, remove your patriotism and you will get what Taimi was talking about.

 

[TaimiKhan]

And to add to what Taimikhan is saying here, it's not just about the amount of money, but far more importantly, payment terms. If Pakistan communicates a strategic priority to China concerning its need for the J-XX, I can assure you that terms will be put in place that make the aircraft affordable for Pakistan without it enduring any economic hardship. No question in my mind about this... and you just have to look at the history of defence relations between the two countries to figure this out.

Exactly, same happened in past and happening in present.

First 50 JF-17s are on seller's credit.

Same would be done with FC-20s.

Seller's credit for the 4 F-22Ps.

And God knows in which other deals the same procedure.

And if J-XX bought, will happen again too.

 

[Adios Amigo]

Gogbot

This post is specially for you, though i think Taimi Khan answered your queries in very effective way, but you dont seem to be convinced, so here are some thoughts. I posted it in some other thread started by the same respectable member, Storm Force, where he was trying to prove that since PAKFA has made its appearance so Jf-17 program is totally outdated and would be waste of resources.

Jf-17 program will continue, its going no where,with more robust modernization, probably there numbers might drop to 200, but i dont believe less than that.

Secondly FC-20 might be coming a bit early now, may be around 2012 or 2013, if you consider its prototype flew back in 2009, Pushing Chinese to put PAF initial order ahead of theirs, maturity is not the issue here, Its already based on a mature J10 platform. Also the number will surely go up to at least 100, to counter both MMRCA and MKIs, less then that is not gonna work out.

Lastly some guys are getting to optimistic about PAK-FA and forgetting JXX, where as JXX as real as PAK FA, and as per chinese sources Jxx are multiple programs, and they are in prototype stages, I personally believe a median flight somewhere b/w 2011 and 2012, guys suggesting 2015 are to far off reality, and as a Chinese general clearly indicated that they will be inducting them by 2018, same time when India will start inducting PAKFA , for Pakistan, it can take couple of years off from inducting a fifth generation fighter, and carry on completion of its modernization program up till 2020, which i believe will be completed by 2019 as per Air Force Modernization Plan 2019 after 2020 any time may be we will be able to induct Jxx, and there total figure will not cross 50,i.e not more then 3 squadrons, basically it means we will be inducting next generation fighter at least 4 to 5 years after India, so you guys are well ahead in the race.

However having said that, the more time and gap we have in technologies, the greater chances of a nuclear war, because of strategic imbalance, and in order to counter, GOP will Put a lot more focus on PAF now, and divert more resources to meat its need.

I think this post should satisfy all of your quires.
(By the way kinshuk, this post got thanked by your Favorite critic Mastan Khan).

Secondly you said, something about J-10 delivery as was late by a good 10 years, now this is what i called ignorance, J-10s delivery was due back in 2009, and deal was almost done, but it was the same J-10 A, with some minor modifications as per PAF requirements, But thanks good and thanks to the thinking heads in PAF, who realized, that in order to meat the challenges posed by MKIs and more then that of the coming MMRCA , they actually need a top notch fighter, and therefore they postponed the delivery in favor of J-10 B until 2013-14. So this the actual logic behind postponing the J-10 A delivery. Please surf around a bit you will find all the truth, you need.

Now some buddy referred to the engine problem associated, Indeed that was true with W-10S and W-10SA, but that has been solved to a greater extent if not completely, and that's why, it is now being used on J-11B, Check it out and you find those pictures.
But more importantly, the engine used proposed for JXX is WS-15 and not WS-10 series, which is totally different from WS-10 series, and the Chinese authorities are very much impressed with its progress and apparently has not met any major setbacks, its very much in its final stages and that's why the Chinese, has even released its Images for the first time. here is the treat for you, enjoy.




Another thing some buddy talked about advance avionics, quiet right but sorry again you guys don't seem to update yourselves with right information. Now i cant discuss more about it but show some more delights, its totally real and not faked or PS.

this one is for J-14. The one pitted against F22


I have a video for it but i cant upload it, need some Chinese, member help to upload that video from the Chinese forums or websites.


These are for J-15 or J-20, the one pitted against FA-35

These are real images and nothing fake in it.I have some more, but cant copy them, due technical problems on the respected sites, and more over the pity is my attachment limit is long over.

I firmly believe china will test fly its Fifth generation fighter between 2011 and 2012. I can put a wager on that. They had firm belief in themselves that's why the opted out of PAKFA, that's a very bold decision, either your stupid to take such step or you have better then whats offered. Now you select any which you like for china.

To add to it, I believe JXX will be much better design wise as compare to PAKFA, as J10 is to SUs or MIGs. China is a giant which has fully awaken and is enjoying a roller coaster ride of Political, Economical and Technological advancements. It will surpass its Adversaries and competitors without even letting them know, and
wave them a good by with a lot of smiles.











adios

 

[Super Falcon]

I feel JXX is still far away may be next 7 to 8 years

 

[rizhussain44]

I feel JXX is still far away may be next 7 to 8 years

Falcon bahi, another very impressive post!

 

[zagahaga]

i thought the FC-20 was just called such as it was the Customized version for Pakistan.

yes it is tailored for paf but it is a j 10 ..... not a j 10b

 

[Dazzler]

For Zagahaga, i wonder why are the Russians calling it FC-20?

Russian media:

Chinese F-10B (FC-20) equipped with conformal fuel tanks will be exported to Pakistan.

Daily News:

According to the Russian aviation website in Hong Kong, China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAC) has started production of the 2 seater version of F-10A (J-10A) called F-10S (J-10S).

Export version to Pakistan will be called FC-20 (J-10B).

Pakistan Air Force:

PAF plans to purchase 36 to 100 FC-20 aircraft. China's will start exporting FC-20s to Pakistan starting from 2014 to 2015 period.

Compared to PLAAF F-10A (J-10A), F-10B (J-10B or FC-20) will be equipped with:

1) Thrust vectored engines,

2) Conformal Fuel Tanks,

3) extra antennas on both sides of the fuselage for a new radio and electronic equipment (as seen in new photos),

4) AESA Radar (as speculated by experts),

5) DSI inlets (also reduces RCS and weight),

6) Electro-optical tracking system (passive sensors),

7) Infrared search and tracking sensor (passive sensors),

8) LASER range finder,

9) Electronic Warfare and Counter Measure Equipment (on top of vertical stabilizer), and

10) more fuselage and wing hard-points to carry extra weapons and pods.

F-10B's (FC-20) development began in 2004 - 2005 period and completed in December 2008 with its first flight.

F-10B (FC-20) program has active Russian MiG Aircraft Manufacturing Company’s technical support.

The original text is here in Chinese shared by Gordon Blade of China Defense Forum

俄媒：中国歼10B装备保形油箱将出口巴基斯坦

　
东方网消息：据俄罗斯航空港网站报道，中国的成都飞机工业集团(CAC)已开始着手生产双座型 的歼-10型战斗机－－歼-10B。其对巴基斯坦出口时的名称将是FC-20。

巴空军消息人士透露，巴方将采购36－100架FC-20。中方的供货将在2014－2015年间开始。

与解放军空军现役的歼-10A相比，歼-10B将装备可控矢量推力发动机，机身两侧也将安装与美国F-16 Block 60类似的保形油箱。从目前公布的照片上来看，歼-10B的机身两侧出现了额外的天线，这表明，CAC已为其更换了新型无线电电子设备。有专家推测，歼 -10B还将装备主动相控阵雷达。

据悉，歼-10B的研制工作始于2004－2005年间，并在2008年12月份完成了首次飞行。从照片上判断 ，该机 采用了重新设计的无附面层隔道超音速进气道(DSI)，不但减轻了飞机的整体重量，而且还降低 了雷达反射面 积。

除此之外，歼-10B还装备了与苏-30MKK类似的光电跟踪系统。该系统配置于战机座舱盖的右前方，由一部红外搜索跟踪传感器和一部激光测距仪，可以被动式探测敌方目标而无需开启火控雷达，从而降低被敌方战机发现的概率。至于歼-10B垂尾上方增加的一个较大整流罩，里面很可能安装了电子战和电子对抗设备。

除此之外，歼-10B机身和机翼下的武器挂点也将有所增加，并会加挂目标指示吊舱。有消息称，歼-10B计划得到了俄罗斯“米格”飞机制造公司专家的技术帮助。(春&#39118

(Courtesy : gordonblade)

 

[Dazzler]

Here is more, sorry to MODS for being a little off topic but.....

DATE:30/09/09
SOURCE:Flight International
China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters
By Siva Govindasamy

China plans to market the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighters aggressively as part of its plan to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.

"While AVIC's main job is to manufacture aircraft, the company also fulfils a national agenda by producing military aircraft for China's political allies around the world," says a source close to Chengdu's state-owned parent company. "There are also countries that would like to buy a good fighter, but not at the cost of a Western fighter.

"While China's military aircraft have been exported for many years, this is the first time that there is a concerted effort to properly market them and establish a support network," the source adds.

In the past few months, senior company officials have been identifying the military products that will be given the most attention for the export market. In the fighter segment, the JF-17 and the J-10 are the two most important aircraft, says the source.

"Given that the JF-17 has been in service in China and Pakistan for a number of years and is a mature programme, it is being given first priority," the source adds.

Islamabad, which helped to develop the JF-17, has committed to buying 150 aircraft produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. This figure could rise to 300 aircraft to replace the country's air force fleets of Nanchang A-5s, Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirage III and Mirage Vs.

The JF-17 will be able to carry a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs, and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles from short- to beyond-visual-range. The type is already being marketed to countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America and South-East Asia.

"The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter," the source says. "But there has been interest from several countries."

AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type - which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 - after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.

Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15.

Beijing could extend loans to purchasing countries and offer local assembly if there are sufficient orders, the source adds.

 

[Dazzler]

This one is quite relevant though...


PLAAF to Fly 5th Generation Fighter

Nov 15, 2009

Reuben F. Johnson/Show News

Dubai Airshow

China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) says it will soon fly a prototype of its 5th-generation fighter, and that the aircraft will enter service within ten years--much earlier than originally projected by the U.S. intelligence community. If true, the rationale for cancelling further production of the Lockheed Martin F-22A--which is making its first appearance at Dubai this year--in favor of the F-35 would appear to have been an error in properly vetting U.S. Air Force, DIA and CIA foreign weapon system intelligence estimates.

The PLAAF celebrated the 60th anniversary of its founding as a branch of the Chinese armed services just last week. Part of the lead-up to the celebration was an interview with deputy commander He Weirong on the CCTV program "Face to Face," who made these first official statements actually acknowledging the program. The development of the 5th generation fighter is being "intensely made," he said, and the first test flight is coming later, with initial PLAAF deliveries to take place by 2010.

The lead design center on the program is No. 611 Institute--or the Chengdu Aerospace Development Institute--with prototype production to take place at Plant No. 132 of the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation. Chengdu's 5th-generation design supposedly won the competition between Chinese aircraft development centers, but their rivals at No. 601 Institute of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation will also participate in the program.

Sources in Beijing point out that the chief designer of the Chengdu J-10, Yang Wei, had been promoted some time ago to a position at AVIC headquarters in Beijing, and had a hand in making sure that the Chengdu design was declared the winner.

Previous released projections of Chinese aeroengine development have mentioned a developed version of the Liming Aeroengine Manufacturing Corporation's WS-10A engine, designated the WS-10G, which has a thrust rating of 15800 kg (155kN). Other sources have stated the engine is the WS-15 model rated at 15000 kg (147kN). The Chinese almost never mention a program until officials been given clearance to do so--and they are assured that the program schedule as announced can be met. Barring any unforeseen technological bottlenecks, the Chinese program would appear to be moving faster than its U.S. (F-35) and Russian (T-50/PAK-FA) analogs


Copyright 2009 Aviation Week, a division of The McGraw-Hill Companies.

 

[BATMAN]

Chinese program would appear to be moving faster than its U.S. (F-35) and Russian (T-50/PAK-FA) analogs

Truly the bottom line

 

[hboGYT]

China isnt developing a 5th generation fighter 10 years after the Russians start inducting theirs.

Their engine technology is still not even close to Al-31FP. J-10 had DIRECT Russian assistance. Their engine has DIRECT Russian assistance yet it is not operational. Their radar technology is much behind Russia. There are a whole bunch of things which they are yet to do for this generation of planes let alone the next one.

Unless China shows a plane in 10 years time and starts calling it their 5th gen plane, to allow their military and others to celebrate China's 'achievement', they aren't coming out with an operational 5th gen plane for good damn time.

J-10's airframe didn't get direct Russian assistance. Russian assistance was limited to technical consultation and maybe use of their wind-tunnels. WS-10A engine has no connection to the Russians whatsoever. WS-10 is already operational on J-11B, but the Russians are offering a more competitive Al-31 variant for J-10, and the Russian engine is chosen. This is the reason why the Chinese J-20 will have canards, to make for the deficiency in thrust with aerodynamics.

Chinese radar technology is not behind Russian at all. China has already field numerous platforms with ASEA, type-052C, KJ-2000, Balance Beam and J-10A. What do the Russians have? Mig-35 maybe

 

[gogbot]

Get me a source which says it will cost 100M US$s, then we will talk.

lol jxx cost 100mil no wayyyy. around 65 to 75 mil maybeeeeee

Is that how much you think its going to cost.

Lets just run down some of the stuff that's going to be on the plane

Stealth characteristics,( Airframe made from various materials, RAM coatings, Internal weapon bays, Smart skins and whole other list of classified and expensive tech)

The Most advanced AESA radar China has made

The Most advanced engine with 3d thrust vectoring control and super cruise.

An advanced Avionics suit

An advanced EW suit

That's just some of the stuff, Name me one plane you know that has all those features but costs less than 75 million. Its going to be expensive no doubt

And to add to what Taimikhan is saying here, it's not just about the amount of money, but far more importantly, payment terms. If Pakistan communicates a strategic priority to China concerning its need for the J-XX, I can assure you that terms will be put in place that make the aircraft affordable for Pakistan without it enduring any economic hardship. No question in my mind about this... and you just have to look at the history of defence relations between the two countries to figure this out.

Thank you for proper answer.

I can see China doing something like that, yes
After all you are allies.