PA TANKS comparison with contempory tanks

[Dazzler]

OFB only produce these rounds so far with the same value i posted !!

If there is any other round bring the proof otherwise accept the fact that these are just duds..


Regarding ammunition particularly AMK 340...

The AMK340 have not been configured for the T90S yet crewmembers have been wounded - that actually refers to the T-72s.
The T-90S's have not been configured for the round.


a) Hybrid- Russian penetrator + OFB propellant (disaster, 88k rounds segregated, ultimately destroyed)


b ) This one from the DRDO, productionized at the OFB Initial batches delivered alongside the Hybrid round, some batches found to also have problems and segregrated for rectification. But after problems sorted out, production restarted and by 2003 December, 1,30,000 rounds delivered. I dont remember how many of these rounds were rejected along with the hybrid batch, but if those have also been rejected rather than remanufacture- I wouldnt be surprised. The Army is well within its rights to have OFB make new rounds (hopefully of better quality) rather than tinker around with rounds which are messed up (propellant leakage in heat or whatever).

c) The M711 (most probably) of which 26,000 rounds were imported as an emergency measure during 1999, for the T-72 fleet. The Army found these rounds to be excellent and advised production of the same. The DRDO deposition noted that in terms of performance, these were equal to the above rounds, but would be inferior to the MK2 (then) in development. The MK2 is mentioned below (d).

d)Improved version of b ) with higher power propellant- and better penetration, mentioned in the MOD 2005-06 report.

e) IMI -OFB coproduction deal for 125mm ammo, signed after the T-90 deal was signed. This kind of leads me to believe that there were either issues with latest Russian ammo availability or that the IMI rounds performance was better. Anyways, this round is being manufactured now. HAPP manufactures penetrators, so if we go by logic- the IMI penetrators are also being manufactured locally and if they do manage to do it, then that could have a positive spin off on other tank rounds manufactured in India.

Alternatively, as mentioned in this thread- the other thing is that India negotiated for newer FSAPDS rounds than the original Israeli design procured/ ordered in 1999 & that involved renogiation. It would be interesting to see what TOT was provided, and the Israeli POV on whether HAPP/ OFB was able to succesfully absorb this.

Only the elite 4rth armoured division and parts of the republican guard use this tank.



Already given multiple times on how our turrets are way better designed than ur flawed chinese designs,and our ERA way better coverage.
T-90 can take latest US exports kew-2 and latest ukrainian rounds without ERA ,what will ur babydoll naiza rounds do against it.And that was before we added kanchan that led to weight increase due to heavy composite armour.

the point being that they do operate two versions of T-72, the A being much better than M in armour.

 

[Dazzler]

Only the elite 4rth armoured division and parts of the republican guard use this tank.



Already given multiple times on how our turrets are way better designed than ur flawed chinese designs,and our ERA way better coverage.
T-90 can take latest US exports kew-2 and latest ukrainian rounds without ERA ,what will ur babydoll naiza rounds do against it.And that was before we added kanchan that led to weight increase due to heavy composite armour.

there goes the fantasy parade, AGAIN.

Arjun has severe flaws anyone can see, an underpowered and obsolete gun, an optical sight where the armour should have been instead! And side armour is too thin which is covered by ammunition boxes. This is the start. I have not even counted the engine sue yet

T-90S is a better tank in terms of armour and protection agreed but it is still a revamped T72 with 80's improvements. T-80 ud aka ob. 478 BE has new composite armour which the ukrainians have not yet disclosed as i said earlier.

All is depend on context.
1. Indian Army haven't modern APFSDS and havent any APFSDS able to slighty overpas ERA armour. So Kontakt-5 on T-80UD is serious problem.
2. Basic T-80UD armour is quite good. LOS thickenss is smaller then T-80UD then in Arjun generally, but it doesn't means that armour is weaker.
3. Arjun have huge weak zones - gun mantled mask and main sight. It's more serious problem then in Leo-2A4.

More or less IMHO T-80UD is better armoured.

more here...

Well - dozens of masurments Arjun -made on draws, photos. More or less im in one line in Dejawolf - Arjun Mk.I have serious flaws. The same whit grate respect to Indian industry and DRDO - Indian had serious problem whit make licenced T-90S, there is still lack many crusial components technology and I shoud belive that Idndian industry will be able made armour on top level? It's hard to belive IMHO. Of course Kanchan armour is still developed, etc etc.

But I can image in what way coud go developmend, without Russian, Israeli or other support. We haven't still any confirm that some country whit advanced armour sold how-know to India, so it's rather logical that Indian industry is developed Kanchan by it's own, but it's haven't any single modern armoured tank (sold to) in India to just copy it's armour.

For other hand - T-80U and UD is well known -even whit 80s armour composition, Konatkt-5 is well known -to, and T-80UD is ex-Soviet top level tank -in fact whit the most modern and danger family - mucht better then T-72/90S. Those tank was sold to Pakistan -in those top level (as for late Soviet tanks) an it's logicall that Pak engineers had acess to armour technology (coposition) and others. They just coud copy it, and in cooperation whit PRC put in Al-Khalid.

It's mucht mucht more comfortable situation then in India when indian industry is trying to developed it's own solutions. And have no "pattern" to copy it.

 

[Dazzler]

on IA APFSDS rounds ...

A longer penetrator alone does not help much, because the 125 mm APFSDS rounds can also be made longer (the Indian Mk 2 APFSDS does not reach the autoloader's limit). The current 120 APFSDS used on the Arjun is obsolete, introducing a better one is important.

You cannot simply put more propellant into a tank gun. First of all there is no place for it (the breech cannot simply be enlarged) and secondly the efficiency decreases the more powder one use (especially on rifled guns). Using better propellant is an option, but the Indian tank gun does not seem to support as much pressure as other ones.
Buying or developing a smootbore gun is required for making the Arjun tank competitive.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Of course but you are gain cherrypicking quotes that were comparing indian tanks with western levels.
As for underpowered gun,there has not been a single complaint about the gun by IA right from the start even with all other problems.
What engine issue,currrent engine is satisfcatory and its not for nothing its called desert ferrari.
Firstly side armour is weak for all,especially ur al khalid which is tiny compared to arjun.Also didn't get what u meant by ammo boxes.Proof or masturbation fantasy?
And there goes ur fantasy parade again,comparing t-90 with t-72.And our t-90s use kanchan heavy composite armour as well which has delighted IA with its performance and is being used wherever possible.

The thing is none of your rounds can penetrate t-90 even without ERA at range.
Forget arjun,arjun is western style design that has proven in IA trials match for t-90 in armour protection anyday.

Western tank design philosphy>russian tank design philosophy>chinese design philosophy....at least till now in terms of 1 to 1 tank quality.
Better start worrying about the gaping holes and flaws in your al khalid tank,its vulnerable badly.And when neither sides ammo can penetrate the others it is these weakspots and tactics that will matter.

 

[Dazzler]

Of course but you are gain cherrypicking quotes that were comparing indian tanks with western levels.
As for underpowered gun,there has not been a single complaint about the gun by IA right from the start even with all other problems.
What engine issue,currrent engine is satisfcatory and its not for nothing its called desert ferrari.
Firstly side armour is weak for all,especially ur al khalid which is tiny compared to arjun.Also didn't get what u meant by ammo boxes.Proof or masturbation fantasy?
And there goes ur fantasy parade again,comparing t-90 with t-72.And our t-90s use kanchan heavy composite armour as well which has delighted IA with its performance and is being used wherever possible.

The thing is none of your rounds can penetrate t-90 even without ERA at range.
Forget arjun,arjun is western style design that has proven in IA trials match for t-90 in armour protection anyday.

Western tank design philosphy>russian tank design philosophy>chinese design philosophy....at least till now in terms of 1 to 1 tank quality.
Better start worrying about the gaping holes and flaws in your al khalid tank,its vulnerable badly.And when neither sides ammo can penetrate the others it is these weakspots and tactics that will matter.

unless you have an eyesight problem, check you posts and my replies. Its all a learning process so no need to worry. We all learn, some the easy way so not so easy.

The gun is not only underpowered but quality is seriously hampered for some unkown reason, there have been chipping of barrel and plenty of wear after few rounds without fulfilling the desired EFC of 500 rounds. It rarrely lasts that long.

EFC 500 is already an obsolete value heck even early ZPT-98 had 900 EFC value.

Judging from the flaws on Arjun, I would rate Indian tank design phiosophy as the lowest

Gaping holes in Ak Khalid, another laughing bit form you

I see plenty of weakzones in your Arjun as mentioned above but the only gaping hole you come up with is fantasy drawings made by some Sim players ::

 

[Dazzler]

Here is the deal, regarding your mighty Kanchan armour, the only reliable source available talks about the developments undertaken in 1980s, rest of the sources quote that source allone. Show some recent pic or source atleast so we could judge its dynamics

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Here is the deal, regarding your mighty Kanchan armour, the only reliable source available talks about the developments undertaken in 1980s, rest of the sources quote that source allone. Show some recent pic or source atleast so we could judge its dynamics

Quality/composition of new composite armour is NEVER open info,if u were serious u would know that.Rest assured its a heavy composite armour.If IA has chosen to use kanchan in our t-90 instead of the russian composite armour its after due consideration.We have also supposedly shared some of this tech with israelis.
The weight of kanchan composites is much more than russian composites,thats why indina t-90 are much heavier than t-90A.
As for development the armour used now is totally different from the one developed in 1980s.Kanchan armour is evolutionary development of 30 yrs and IA is very pleased with it.

 

[Dazzler]

Quality/composition of new composite armour is NEVER open info,if u were serious u would know that.Rest assured its a heavy composite armour.If IA has chosen to use kanchan in our t-90 instead of the russian composite armour its after due consideration.We have also supposedly shared some of this tech with israelis.
The weight of kanchan composites is much more than russian composites,thats why indina t-90 are much heavier than t-90A.
As for development the armour used now is totally different from the one developed in 1980s.Kanchan armour is evolutionary development of 30 yrs and IA is very pleased with it.

i showed a video where boron carbide tiles were being cut at HIT, another source was a paper about boron carbide use in pakistan nuke program since 80s. Boron carbide is the hardest material leving behind aluminium carbide and silica and others. Thats why the Burlington (chobham) and recently Altay mbt have been known to use it.

I also showed AK armour test pics with minimum APFSDS penetration. None of this exposed the composite armour as its all available on net. Unless Kanchan is another failure and a tall claim as usual

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

unless you have an eyesight problem, check you posts and my replies. Its all a learning process so no need to worry. We all learn, some the easy way so not so easy.

The gun is not only underpowered but quality is seriously hampered for some unkown reason, there have been chipping of barrel and plenty of wear after few rounds without fulfilling the desired EFC of 500 rounds. It rarrely lasts that long.

EFC 500 is already an obsolete value heck even early ZPT-98 had 900 EFC value.

Judging from the flaws on Arjun, I would rate Indian tank design phiosophy as the lowest

Gaping holes in Ak Khalid, another laughing bit form you

I see plenty of weakzones in your Arjun as mentioned above but the only gaping hole you come up with is fantasy drawings made by some Sim players ::

Those fantasy sim players were the same u have quoted periodically throughout the thread,u have given no refutation argument to those geometric diagrams and have constantly evaded that question like a coward.
Also there is no indian design philosophy.

From what i know even t-72 ajeya 2A46M series guns have 1500-1700 efc.Not sure on arjun's value.give me a source.
But EFC doesn't represent the power of the gun at all,it represents barrel life..so ur comment on on weak gun is total LOL.
In fire trials with t-90.
Arjun had 90% FRHP[hit probability] on 2.3m x 2.3 m target at 2000 m compared to t-90 85% FRHP on 3mx3m target at 1600m.
The gun is damn accurate and can pick off targets way out to range.It also has better ammo than 125 mm indian rounds.

So do worry about ur al khalid that is totally vulnerable,sloped turret roof,turret flank and ERA uncovered front turret area along with gun mantlet,lower hull,sides and rear where all tanks are vulnerable.

 

[Dazzler]

Those fantasy sim players were the same u have quoted periodically throughout the thread,u have given no refutation argument to those geometric diagrams and have constantly evaded that question like a coward.
Also there is no indian design philosophy.

From what i know even t-72 ajeya 2A46M series guns have 1500-1700 efc.Not sure on arjun's value.give me a source.
But EFC doesn't represent the power of the gun at all,it represents barrel life..so ur comment on on weak gun is total LOL.
In fire trials with t-90.
Arjun had 90% FRHP[hit probability] on 2.3m x 2.3 m target at 2000 m compared to t-90 85% FRHP on 3mx3m target at 1600m.
The gun is damn accurate and can pick off targets way out to range.It also has better ammo than 125 mm indian rounds.

So do worry about ur al khalid that is totally vulnerable,sloped turret roof,turret flank and ERA uncovered front turret area along with gun mantlet,lower hull,sides and rear where all tanks are vulnerable.

unless you have a claim to refute what i quoted, please bring it

oh mann! who said the gun is not accurate?? afterall riflling is to increase accuracy so what the point?

What i said is that rifle barrels are obsolete big time. They are slow and full of unnecessary wear and tear.

Slowness restricts the penetration so Arjun is a big issue in hand unless you switch to smoothbore. India is the only country that has a modern tank with obsolete gun. With this gun, AK and UD have nothing to worry about. Not to mention the APFSDS they fire are already obsolete

by the way, what APFSDS was tested on Arjun from point blank range can you name it?

 

[Dazzler]

The only tank with one side frontal ERA only, so all we need to do is to aim at the optics and launch and KABOOMMM! ::

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

unless you have a claim to refute what i quoted, please bring it

oh mann! who said the gun is not accurate?? afterall riflling is to increase accuracy so what the point?

What i said is that rifle barrels are obsolete big time. They are slow and full of unnecessary wear and tear.

Slowness restricts the penetration so Arjun is a big issue in hand unless you switch to smoothbore. India is the only country that has a modern tank with obsolete gun. With this gun, AK and UD have nothing to worry about. Not to mention the APFSDS they fire are already obsolete

by the way, what APFSDS was tested on Arjun from poin blank range can you name it?

Rifle barrels may be dated,yes.But they are quite relevant in indo pak scenario as HESH is cheap round for knocking out numerous field fortifications,bunkers and pillboxes we have facing each other on the border.
As for muzzle velocity,muzzle velocity of latest american M2A9A3 is around 1500m/s.U think its a harmless round?


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Thanks for the pic with penetration value listed.600 mm isn't bad at all with arjun's accuracy we will easily pick out and chomp on al khalids multiple weak spots.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The only tank with one side frontal ERA only, so all we need to do is to aim at the optics and launch and KABOOMMM! ::

HAHAHA,what are u joker?
Arjun Mk1 doesn't even need ERA.
Thats NERA btw.Arjun has waay larger turret built in western style mbt to incorporate much more integral composite armour than al khalid chinese style mbt.
Does leopard/abrams/challenger use ERA in frontal arc?Nope,cause they rely on large amount of composite armour.Arjun DOESN'T NEED era,its secondary protection that beefs up its protection level even higher.You will find ERA only on that MK 2 prototype,MK1 doesn't even use ERA.Its huge turret has enough composite armour to shut down any enemy rounds in the neighbourhood.

 

[Dazzler]

Rifle barrels may be dated,yes.But they are quite relevant in indo pak scenario as HESH is cheap round for knocking out numerous field fortifications,bunkers and pillboxes we have facing each other on the border.
As for muzzle velocity,muzzle velocity of latest american M2A9A3 is around 1500m/s.U think its a harmless round?


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Thanks for the pic with penetration value listed.600 mm isn't bad at all with arjun's accuracy we will easily pick out and chomp on al khalids multiple weak spots.

You know what? i am beginning to worry about your sanity now as you neither read nor comprehend my posts and keep repeating the same rhetoric after a few posts :O

First, the DRDO APFSDS pic that you put is already obsolete as it is neither in service. Look at the DAMN rod, its not small, its tiny! How on earth its gonna penetrate anything let alone armour. The rod is not even 500 mm i.e. its gonna die somewhere around 310-320 mm at best. Sigh

And please read something about HESH before you claim tall. On a composite armour, without ERA, HESH is already obsolete. There goes your hope

And Arjun has not so many weakspots i cant even count but ket me try.

*The optics

*The side armour is so thin protected byt guess what? Yep, luggage or ammunition boxes.

*The turret is bare without armour or even decent composite

*The mighty engine failed again in recent trials during a 1000 kms so there foes the powerpack.

*FCS is now newly designed means the basic one goes to the dustbin since its obsolete

*AND the might gun and ammunition, already explained about them so leave it

HAHAHA,what are u joker?
Arjun Mk1 doesn't even need ERA.
Thats NERA btw.Arjun has waay larger turret built in western style mbt to incorporate much more integral composite armour than al khalid chinese style mbt.
Does leopard/abrams/challenger use ERA in frontal arc?Nope,cause they rely on large amount of composite armour.Arjun DOESN'T NEED era,its secondary protection that beefs up its protection level even higher.You will find ERA only on that MK 2 prototype,MK1 doesn't even use ERA.Its huge turret has enough composite armour to shut down any enemy rounds in the neighbourhood.

The LOS of Arjun is not more than 380-400 mm lad, it NEEDS all the ERA it can get front on and all we see is an exposed optics, an open target for the enemy. Go and ask your experts how many flaws Arjun have. If you cant, just check the specs of Arjun MKII, all that has been added was NOT in the current version.

Its sides are not even worth mentioning so leave it as is. Ammunition boxes add a worth of .5-1 cm value but thats enough for it

Do more homework till evening i will come and check ok.

Take care

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

You know what? i am beginning to worry about your sanity now as you neither read nor comprehend my posts and keep repeating the same rhetoric after a few posts :O

First, the DRDO APFSDS pic that you put is already obsolete as it is neither in service. Look at the DAMN rod, its not small, its tiny! How on earth its gonna penetrate anything let alone armour. The rod is not even 500 mm i.e. its gonna die somewhere around 310-320 mm at best. Sigh

And please read something about HESH before you claim tall. On a composite armour, without ERA, HESH is already obsolete. There goes your hope

And Arjun has not so many weakspots i cant even count but ket me try.

*The optics

*The side armour is so thin protected byt guess what? Yep, luggage or ammunition boxes.

*The turret is bare without armour or even decent composite

*The mighty engine failed again in recent trials during a 1000 kms so there foes the powerpack.

*FCS is now newly designed means the basic one goes to the dustbin since its obsolete

*AND the might gun and ammunition, already explained about them so leave it



The LOS of Arjun is not more than 380-400 mm lad, it NEEDS all the ERA it can get front on and all we see is an exposed optics, an open target for the enemy. Go and ask your experts how many flaws Arjun have. If you cant, just check the specs of Arjun MKII, all that has been added was NOT in the current version.

Its sides are not even worth mentioning so leave it as is. Ammunition boxes add a worth of .5-1 cm value but thats enough for it

Do more homework till evening i will come and check ok.

Take care

So i guess the statement there is lying.All POF statements are correct and all ours lying.Good going.And yes that round is old.No idea about penetration of current round.310-320 mm?
On ganza?You think anyone would even bother with 300 mm round on a modern tank?

Now onto ur expert opinion on arjun's weakpoints-
1.There is a armour block behind optics apparently.See the massive debate on this on ***.
This is a design feature present on leo2A4 as well.
2.Ammo boxes.Proof or more fantasy?
3.Without decent composite?What u think kanchan is for show and that huge turret hollow?As for empty,all western style MBt's have empty turret on front.
4.No such trials i'm aware of,again spamming bullshit i see.It has been operational since 2009.
5.Absolute bull.First 124 units have all sagem french origin FCS.New one israeli and BEL developed adopted not beacuse earlier was bullshit,but to increase indigeneous output.It has extreme high hit probability greater than .9Pk.
6.Yes ur failure on that has been well noted.

You can come back and check anytime.
But do take care to come back with some proof of refuting those shoddy design flaws in ur khalids.U have run away long enough.All PA tanks except t-80UD have turret design flaws.