Osama bin Laden’s death: Updates & Discussions

[S_O_C_O_M]

Unofficial sources from Pak Military confirm that Pak Soliders had to help the Navy Seals depart Pakistan due to their helicopter crash mishap.

 

[LeGenD]

It is very easy for the people who staged the whole drama to present anyone as OBL's sister and present that 'anyone's' blood as OBL's blood.

It is very easy to deny any information. Refuting it with evidence is the challenging matter.

This is funny, the burden of proof lies on the claimant. they are claiming that OBL was there and shot dead there, at least they should have the courage to prove that.

This is why I stated this:

"To me; logic, brain, and self respect dictates that it is wise to analyze both sides of the coin and show patience. Hopefully truth will prevail, as the picture will become clearer."

You are claiming that the entire event was a drama and OBL was not there. What 'concrete evidence' do you have to support your claims?

- bcaz securities do not know, as he was not there at the very outset.

Again, you are mixing your claims with knowledge of security forces. They are also being questioned for their incompetence.

- for rest: it is part of whole drama.

So OBL wives and kids were planted in that house as a part of whole drama? What 'concrete evidence' do you have to support your claims?

Do you know that where all family members of OBL currently reside?

It is very easy to forward the sayings of any tom dick and harry without looking at reality and facts related thereto. The people whom you call conspiracy theorists, dont believe the words of mouths, especially of those people, whose sayings keep changing by the passage of time.

Conspiracy theorists take advantage of secrecy surrounding sensitive information. They also rely on deceptive techniques or manipulation of data to promote their claims.

Asking for evidence is one thing; jumping to conclusions based on premature assumptions and claims is another thing.

Here a quranic verse is also relevant: (Allah forgive me for any mistake as i dont remember it correctly, please correct me if i m wrong, i ll correct my post)

It is something like "Whenever someone bring news to you, you should evaluate / do the research before believing / passing it on.

First post the correct Quranic verse here.

Yes, it is important to evaluate new information. Purpose is to wait for verification from several sources. Early judgments are usually bad or premature. Just like your judgments regarding 'operation neptune spear' are premature, regardless of decent amount of hints and confirmation from sources (other then US) regarding fate of OBL.

 

[S.M.R]

Osama was a US prisoner before being killed: Iran


TEHERAN - AL-QAEDA founder Osama bin Laden was a prisoner in US custody for 'sometime' before he was killed by the American military, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Sunday.

'I have exact information that bin Laden was held by the American military for sometime... until the day they killed him he was a prisoner held by them,' the hardline president said in a live interview on Iranian state television.

'Please pay attention. This is important. He was held by them for sometime. They made him sick and while he was sick they killed him,' Dr Ahmadinejad added.

He accused US President Barack Obama for announcing the Al-Qaeda leader's death for 'political gain.' 'What the US president has done is for domestic political gain. In other words, they killed him for Mr Obama's election and now they are seeking to replace him with someone else,' Dr Ahmadinejad said without elaborating.

Osama was shot dead on May 2 in a US commando raid on a heavily fortified compound near Islamabad, Pakistan. On May 4, Iranian Defence Minister Ahmad Vahidi too had cast doubt on Osama's death, saying there were 'ambiguities' over the way he was killed.

The Americans 'said they threw his body in the sea. Why did they not allowed an independent expert to examine the body to say if it was bin Laden or not?' Mr Vahidi said. -- AFP

 

[Chogy]

Now THERE'S a great source of unbiased observation and intel - Ahmadinejad.

Why is it SO important for some people that the raid be a sham, a conspiracy? Because it is unthinkable that it happened as advertised?

I'd say the logistics behind creating a sham raid is more difficult than an actual raid. And wouldn't they have placed him much, much closer to the Afghan border?

 

[Safriz]

Now THERE'S a great source of unbiased observation and intel - Ahmadinejad.

Why is it SO important for some people that the raid be a sham, a conspiracy? Because it is unthinkable that it happened as advertised?

I'd say the logistics behind creating a sham raid is more difficult than an actual raid. And wouldn't they have placed him much, much closer to the Afghan border?

Nop..it was a plan to disgrace pakistan army..by conveniently placing him at the birthplace of pakistan army..

 

[VCheng]

Nop..it was a plan to disgrace pakistan army..by conveniently placing him at the birthplace of pakistan army..

It is was indeed a "plan to disgrace the army" then why did Kayani and Pasha congratulate Grossman?

Given recent events, this article makes some good points:

from: Pakistan after bin Laden: Humiliation of the military men | The Economist

......

Generals Kayani and Pasha are struggling to calibrate their response. Both congratulated Marc Grossman, America’s regional envoy, for bin Laden’s killing when they met a few hours after the raid. In public, by contrast, General Kayani growled that America was trampling on Pakistan and must reduce its “footprint”. Over military aid, they grumble that needed helicopters and fighter jets are held back. And to show that Pakistan has other options, Mr Gilani is to visit China, its “all-weather friend”, on May 17th.

......

 

[PWFI]

 

[PWFI]

double post oupss

 

[LeGenD]

for you my friend, ignorance is a bliss.. Here, tell me if this is OBL.. its from the "movie" they released.. @ or around 2:22 in the movie if you wanna check..

Look at the lips, cheek bones, eyebrows and ears.. also keep in mind that OBL was lefty, this person is using right hand to hold the remote control..

Take that advice for yourself.

You, I, and all others (general audience) are being kept in the DARK by US administration about the event of May 2. Our knowledge is based on what is being projected through MEDIA sources thus far.

So it is not wise to jump to premature conclusions. Several sources (besides US) have verified the fate of OBL. He is gone. Al-Qaeda confirmed it; captured OBL family members confirmed it; And others are also accepting this. With passage of time, the picture will get clearer.

If OBL was alive, he would have let the WORLD know by now. Yet no sign of him.

Try to come out from the gloomy web set by conspiracy theorists and you will learn the virtue of PATIENCE.

 

[Bang Galore]

51 per cent of Pakistanis sad over Osama's death: survey

Islamabad: A majority of Pakistanis surveyed in a poll appeared to be aggrieved over the death of Osama bin Laden, with 51 per cent describing their emotions as "grief". However, one-third said they were unconcerned by the incident.

The nation-wide poll was conducted by Gallup Pakistan between May 7 and May10, less than a week after bin Laden was killed in a raid by US special forces in the garrison city of Abbottabad on May 2.

Only 11 per cent of respondents said they were glad or relieved to know about the death of the Al Qaeda leader.

Forty-four per cent said they considered bin Laden a martyr while 28 per cent said they believed he was killed because he was an outlaw.

Forty-nine per cent considered the raid against bin Laden an activity which was staged by the Americans.

Only 26 per cent believed the story being told is true and 25 per cent were unsure.

A majority said they believed Pakistani authorities acted in connivance with American forces to conduct the operation.

The belief about connivance is slightly higher for the civilian government (57 per cent) than for the army (48 per cent).

Only 30 per cent said they believed that having eliminated bin Laden, the US forces will withdraw from
Afghanistan.

A larger number (51 per cent) believed the US will continue to engage in the war in Afghanistan. Most Pakistanis feared that terrorist acts in their country might rise (42 per cent) or remain as they are (34 per cent).

Only a few (14 per cent) were hopeful that terrorism might decline after bin Laden's removal from the scene.

More than two-third (68 per cent) believed the country's sovereignty was severely compromised by the US operation while 28 per cent disagreed.

The study was released by Gilani Foundation and carried out by Gallup Pakistan, the Pakistani affiliate of Gallup International. The poll covered 2,530 men and women in the rural and urban areas.

51 per cent of Pakistanis sad over Osama's death: survey

 

[SMC]

^ Not long ago bharatis were all over the survey that 66% of Pakistanis don't believe Bin Laden is dead. Now they're all over this article. But of course being the opportunistic hate mongers they are, they don't see the contradiction here.

 

[S.M.R]

It is very easy to deny any information. Refuting it with evidence is the challenging matter.

Let me rephrase it. "Proving your act with evidence is the challenging matter.

This is why I stated this:

"To me; logic, brain, and self respect dictates that it is wise to analyze both sides of the coin and show patience. Hopefully truth will prevail, as the picture will become clearer."

It seems that to you logic, brain and self respect is what the Uncle Sam said and you believed it blindly. It is like if I claim that I am Gen Zia ul Haq, my claim will be rejected by whole of the world, as there are lot of things which negate my claim. What we are trying to do is to look at those lot of things in case of OBL's death.

You are claiming that the entire event was a drama and OBL was not there. What 'concrete evidence' do you have to support your claims?

Till the concrete evidence is provided, I ll continue to consider that as drama, as i have got brain, not up to that level which you possess, so that brain requires me to seek for the evidence for any claim, WHICH ESPECIALLY RELATES TO MY COUNTRY and WHERE MY COUNTRY IS DIRECTLY AFFECTED DUE TO THAT CLAIM. Will not repeat the questions, as these have already been asked so many times in this thread, but just one for quick reference, i would like mention the question raised by Iran " The Americans 'said they threw his body in the sea. Why did they not allowed an independent expert to examine the body to say if it was bin Laden or not?"

Again, you are mixing your claims with knowledge of security forces. They are also being questioned for their incompetence.

It like my neighbor says "Yesterday night I came to your house, and picked your watch (which was already missing) and thrown it in the gutter, how incompetence your security guard is, fire him"

So OBL wives and kids were planted in that house as a part of whole drama? What 'concrete evidence' do you have to support your claims?

Do you know that where all family members of OBL currently reside?

I am not concerned with the OBL's family's place residence and I dont know whether they were living there or not. Again, till we are not provided with the Concrete Evidence for OBL's presence there, everything will be considered as 'Words of Mouth' by any TOM DICK HARRY and so called OBL family members.

Conspiracy theorists take advantage of secrecy surrounding sensitive information. They also rely on deceptive techniques or manipulation of data to promote their claims.

Why provide a chance of taking advantage of secrecy surrounding sensitive information. That secret sensitive information was secret till the claim of OBL's death, once he is dead, there is no reason to keep his Body secret, not giving to independent experts for examination. The story makers also take the advantage of discrepancies in the plot, as they simply ignore and say, dont worry, the tool of labeling 'Conspiracy Theorists' is still in our hands.

Asking for evidence is one thing; jumping to conclusions based on premature assumptions and claims is another thing.

At least we reached at conclusions AFTER asking for evidences, not like you and others who just reached at conclusions that "Oh okay uncle sam, as you saying OBL is dead, we believe you.

First post the correct Quranic verse here.

It is 49:6 (al-Hujurat)
Translation by MAULANA WAHIDUDDIN KHAN:

Believers, if an evil-doer brings you news, ascertain the correctness of the report fully, lest you unwittingly harm others, and then regret what you have done,

Yes, it is important to evaluate new information. Purpose is to wait for verification from several sources. Early judgments are usually bad or premature. Just like your judgments regarding 'operation neptune spear' are premature, regardless of decent amount of hints and confirmation from sources (other then US) regarding fate of OBL.

We are continuously evaluating the information being released in piece and parcel, we are also considering the twists in the stories / statements. Early judgments are necessary as it is maligning the image of Pakistan, NOW. Therefore till the 'words of mouth' are not proved, we will continue blabbering for evidences.

 

[S.M.R]

51 per cent of Pakistanis sad over Osama's death: survey

Islamabad: A majority of Pakistanis surveyed in a poll appeared to be aggrieved over the death of Osama bin Laden, with 51 per cent describing their emotions as "grief". However, one-third said they were unconcerned by the incident.

The nation-wide poll was conducted by Gallup Pakistan between May 7 and May10, less than a week after bin Laden was killed in a raid by US special forces in the garrison city of Abbottabad on May 2.

Only 11 per cent of respondents said they were glad or relieved to know about the death of the Al Qaeda leader.

Forty-four per cent said they considered bin Laden a martyr while 28 per cent said they believed he was killed because he was an outlaw.

Forty-nine per cent considered the raid against bin Laden an activity which was staged by the Americans.

Only 26 per cent believed the story being told is true and 25 per cent were unsure.

A majority said they believed Pakistani authorities acted in connivance with American forces to conduct the operation.

The belief about connivance is slightly higher for the civilian government (57 per cent) than for the army (48 per cent).

Only 30 per cent said they believed that having eliminated bin Laden, the US forces will withdraw from
Afghanistan.

A larger number (51 per cent) believed the US will continue to engage in the war in Afghanistan. Most Pakistanis feared that terrorist acts in their country might rise (42 per cent) or remain as they are (34 per cent).

Only a few (14 per cent) were hopeful that terrorism might decline after bin Laden's removal from the scene.

More than two-third (68 per cent) believed the country's sovereignty was severely compromised by the US operation while 28 per cent disagreed.

The study was released by Gilani Foundation and carried out by Gallup Pakistan, the Pakistani affiliate of Gallup International. The poll covered 2,530 men and women in the rural and urban areas.

51 per cent of Pakistanis sad over Osama's death: survey

You missed the last and important para, whether it was intentional or just an oversight?

The study was released by Gilani Foundation and carried out by Gallup Pakistan, the Pakistani affiliate of Gallup International. The poll covered 2,530 men and women in the rural and urban areas.

 

[S.M.R]

We need to wait for the results of referendum being carried out by MQM.

 

[LeGenD]

Let me rephrase it. "Proving your act with evidence is the challenging matter.

The affair of OBL is very sensitive. The directly involved stakeholders are looking beyond the paradigm of just satisfying the skepticism. US administration stakeholders is more concerned about repercussions of showing the pictures of deceased OBL at this stage due to ongoing WOT.

The expected repercussions include:

• Groups affiliated with OBL may decide to show images or footage of dead bodies of NATO soldiers in response, if they get the chance to take/make them.
• Groups affiliated with OBL are also expected to carry out revenge attacks.

Recently, we got this: Osama bin Laden 'revenge' attacks in Pakistan - in pictures | World news | guardian.co.uk

And also this: Osama bin Laden dead: Saudi Arabian diplomat shot dead in revenge attack - Telegraph

I can also understand that the repercussions may occur regardless. But they will only affirm the official position of US on fate of OBL.

Sooner of later, concrete details are expected to surface up. Till then, patience is adviced.

It seems that to you logic, brain and self respect is what the Uncle Sam said and you believed it blindly. It is like if I claim that I am Gen Zia ul Haq, my claim will be rejected by whole of the world, as there are lot of things which negate my claim. What we are trying to do is to look at those lot of things in case of OBL's death.

No, I do not put blind faith in claims. I wait for several sources to verify or corroborate with a claim.

In case of fate of OBL, important sources are these:

Osama bin Laden death: Al-Qaida vows to carry out revenge attacks on US | World news | The Guardian

Osama bin Laden's daughter witnessed his death, says Pakistani official | World news | The Guardian

Osama bin Laden death: How family scene in compound turned to carnage | World news | The Guardian

Furthermore, another senator is testifying after observing the evidence:

Blunt observes bin Laden photos | Springfield News-Leader | News-Leader.com

Till the concrete evidence is provided, I ll continue to consider that as drama, as i have got brain, not up to that level which you possess, so that brain requires me to seek for the evidence for any claim, WHICH ESPECIALLY RELATES TO MY COUNTRY and WHERE MY COUNTRY IS DIRECTLY AFFECTED DUE TO THAT CLAIM. Will not repeat the questions, as these have already been asked so many times in this thread, but just one for quick reference, i would like mention the question raised by Iran " The Americans 'said they threw his body in the sea. Why did they not allowed an independent expert to examine the body to say if it was bin Laden or not?"

You make it sound like as if you are the only Pakistani citizen who is worried?

And you know that Iran and US are not on friendly terms?

Here is latest from Iran on OBL's fate:

Osama a prisoner before his death, Iran's leader claims

It like my neighbor says "Yesterday night I came to your house, and picked your watch (which was already missing) and thrown it in the gutter, how incompetence your security guard is, fire him"

With passage of time, we will also get to know Pakistan's perspective regarding event of Operation Neptune Spear.

However, do not underestimate the capabilities of USA. USA is far far stronger then Pakistan (reality check). That nation has landed machines on planet MARS, while we (Pakistani) have yet to develop an aeroplane independently. Try to understand the technological gap between us and them.

What US administration knows and understands about the ground realities of our security establishment can be far greater then what you and I know.

I am not concerned with the OBL's family's place residence and I dont know whether they were living there or not. Again, till we are not provided with the Concrete Evidence for OBL's presence there, everything will be considered as 'Words of Mouth' by any TOM DICK HARRY and so called OBL family members.

Your call. No one cares about what you think or other skeptics may think. Many sources have verified that several family members of OBL were found living in the raided house. And lots of locals have testified that residents of that house were 'secretive about their activities' and were very choosey about whom they would let in.

Why provide a chance of taking advantage of secrecy surrounding sensitive information. That secret sensitive information was secret till the claim of OBL's death, once he is dead, there is no reason to keep his Body secret, not giving to independent experts for examination. The story makers also take the advantage of discrepancies in the plot, as they simply ignore and say, dont worry, the tool of labeling 'Conspiracy Theorists' is still in our hands.

Explained above. The involved stakeholders are looking at the larger picture. Skeptics are only concerned about their personal satisfaction.

At least we reached at conclusions AFTER asking for evidences, not like you and others who just reached at conclusions that "Oh okay uncle sam, as you saying OBL is dead, we believe you.

And what evidences did you saw? US administration has shown nothing about OBL. The only concrete materials we have access to is the evidence of the carnage of that raided house.

It is 49:6 (al-Hujurat)
Translation by MAULANA WAHIDUDDIN KHAN:




We are continuously evaluating the information being released in piece and parcel, we are also considering the twists in the stories / statements. Early judgments are necessary as it is maligning the image of Pakistan, NOW. Therefore till the 'words of mouth' are not proved, we will continue blabbering for evidences.

Thank you for quoting the original verse.

The fate of OBL has been verified from several independent sources and not just from US administration. However, with passage of time, truth is expected to come to light.

Till then, no need to pass premature verdicts on the event of May 2.