Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA

[Abingdonboy]

I just don't understand the point in this thread. The MMRCA is not going to change the face of the IAF or dramatically improve its capabilities. It seems people are forgetting the IAF operates the best 4th gen air superiority fighter in the world - the SU-30MKI (which will soon be DRAMATICALLY upgraded to "SUPER MKI) and is to get the FGFA by the end of the decade not to mention will also be fielding large numbers of advanced LCA in the same time frame. The MMRCA will be a nice bonus to the IAF but is not the be all and end all of the force.

As such the thread shouldn't be focusing pureley on the MMRCA but should be- options for PAF against IAF of the future.

 

[Safriz]

Abu wat is the regional balance TODAY

50-50
70-30
80-20

i WOULD SUGGEST IAF is at least twice the firepower of PAF and will grow to 3-1 in years to come

INDIA QUALITY ADVANTAGE IS GETTING TOO BIG.

Other than Typhoon nothing comes close to rafale FOR MODERN TECHNOLOGY

dont forget...IAF has a much larger area to cover compared to PAF...
And if you throw andaman and nicobar in the equation the bakance swings towards PAF.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

PAF is primarily a defensive force; what we have and what we'll have should suffice -the three sister services are ready at all times to defend the country. I can assure you that.


as i did clearly point out in my post -- said inductions would pose a challenge to PAF. But it isnt like this deal just fell from the sky, it's been being discussed for almost past decade.

 

[Tiger Awan]

I just don't understand the point in this thread. The MMRCA is not going to change the face of the IAF or dramatically improve its capabilities. It seems people are forgetting the IAF operates the best 4th gen air superiority fighter in the world - the SU-30MKI (which will soon be DRAMATICALLY upgraded to "SUPER MKI) and is to get the FGFA by the end of the decade not to mention will also be fielding large numbers of advanced LCA in the same time frame. The MMRCA will be a nice bonus to the IAF but is not the be all and end all of the force.

As such the thread shouldn't be focusing pureley on the MMRCA but should be- options for PAF against IAF of the future.

retiring Mig-21 and replacing them with MMRCA is not going to change anything???
challenging any other airforce does not mean you just match the big guns you need more than that.

 

[sancho]

the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.

what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?

It was clear that threads like this will come up shortly, but I am surprised that a Think Tank like you started it. However, the selection of Rafale doesn't change much for PAF, unless they want to take it as a reason to hype and spread fear in the public, like many forces do to get more money or new toys. MMRCA is aimed on north eastern borders and on countering Chinese forces, only a few squads will be placed towards Pakistan and even without them, the upgrades of Mirage 2000s, Mig 29 and Su 30 MKI will be more important to PAF, because they add a lot of A2A and A2G capabilities anyway.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

first of all, post #173 brings up a good point...


as well, PAF is primarily a defensive force; what we have and what we'll have should suffice -the three sister services are ready at all times to defend the country. I can assure you that.


as i did clearly point out in my post -- said inductions would pose a challenge to PAF. But it isnt like this deal just fell from the sky, it's been being discussed for almost past decade. Now we have a clearer picture; indian will opt for the strike aircraft over the air-superiority rival one. I guess they figured that the russian flankers cover the air superiority role.

 

[Abingdonboy]

dont forget...IAF has a much larger area to cover compared to PAF...
And if you throw andaman and nicobar in the equation the bakance swings towards PAF.

Hardly. IAF has separate commands with each command having their own ac to cover a given threat so th wides of "spreading thin" is unlikely. Not to mention the IN who is to have 150-200 advanced 4.5/5th gen fighters by 2022 who will be able to cover A&N and open a new front for Pakistan so spreading PAF assets thinly.

 

[Jungibaaz]

1. Think tankji you are forgetting that all of these wars you have mentioned India have to divert its forces to 3 fronts west pakistan, east pakistan and china now we have only 2 fronts to take care of.

Bulk of PAF was always at the Western border and it was what is was because fo the West more so then the east, but still... the gap between yourself and China has grown, and PAF in recent years has been closing the gap.

2. With the quality of Indian air defense through purchase and made in India systems deep strike by F-16 as you have mentioned is not possible.

Ever heard of SEAD optimized aircraft?
PAF's F-16 #10801, is just one example (please Think Tanks confirm the #10801's role or correct me if needed)

now PAF's role would be mostly defensive in war as it had been in 65' and 71'.
BUT You can't simply state that... 'we have SAMs and radar therefore our airspace is impenetrable'

In a 'limited' war, I don't see any major air battles or even incursion into enemy territory.
But in a full scale war, yes SAMs and Ground radars prevent some SEAD ops, but what's to say there wont be intel on such sites, who's to say that LR A2G weaponry wont be used? Hell

3. India will further make it thinner for pakistan by scattering your assets along your coastline through the use of its multiple aircraft carrier + Su 30 MKIs.

First of all... I want you to realise that in a war you don't line up soldier against soldiers and have at each other until one dies...
There is so mcuh more to tae into account...

similarly, you can't just say we have x amount Jet A and we have 2x amount of Jet B, therefore we win...
It's naive to say the least.

Now, you tell me why an Air force with 80-odd F-16 Block 52, 150JF-17 and 50-odd J-10B backed by AWACS and all BVR capable couldn't fight off the IAF, not to forget SAM systems and radars.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The reason behind actually for the rejection is

they use euro currency buddy....


you could be partly right, dont forget also that the europeans love cash upfront --they dont do soft credit...but either way, it's not our problem b/c the best path for PAF is to ensure sanction-proof as well as financially sensible.


Windjammer made an excellent point @ Post #9 which you may want to re-visit

Correct. It has indeed reduced to a defensive force only, a big change from here... all thanks to IAF

A Khan: Pak Started All Wars with India - YouTube

K

i think people who are privvy to un-adulterated and non-indianized information would know the real picture about which air forces were seeing reductions (which we see even today without Pakistan's ''help'' --in the form of some of your faulty Mig-21s )


if HAL's maintenance standards and flight safety track record are any indication of ''what's coming'' well then maybe there's less to even be concerned about

 

[Donatello]

Options for PAF:

a) JF-17
b) J-10s
c)All of the above

 

[MilSpec]

Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA:

First off. PAF doesn't need to answer IAF acquisitions.

Pakistan has ample amout of SAM cover and healthy mix of multi role a/c's to defend its skies and ensure that IAF doesn't acquire complete air superiority. Hence pakistan with its intended acquisitions of j17 j10b f16 and future stealth airtcraft will remain at its minimal detterence policy with India

Rafale will just help IAF to maintain its required modest sqdn strength. SU30MKI and it's proposed upgraded version with aesa with air launched brahmos will outgun every other aircraft in the subcontinent, including the rafale.

IAF needs to bring up its sqdn strength to have optimal defence against the vast numbers of PLAAF, and hence acquisition of rafale, mig 29KUB, and upgrades of MKI, Mig 29upg, and M2k's is not pakistan oriented. With the sorry state of Mig 21 and mig 27, it was essential for IAF to buy aircrafts.

The real game changer would be if LCA MK2 is a success, then we can look at substantial air dominance with at least 350 LCA mk2 replacing bisons and taking on the bulk of IAF defensive duties. Others can then be used to there original intended purposes.

 

[Donatello]

Bulk of PAF was always at the Western border and it was what is was because fo the West more so then the east, but still... the gap between yourself and China has grown, and PAF in recent years has been closing the gap.



Ever heard of SEAD optimized aircraft?
PAF's F-16 #10801, is just one example (please Think Tanks confirm the #10801's role or correct me if needed)

now PAF's role would be mostly defensive in war as it had been in 65' and 71'.
BUT You can't simply state that... 'we have SAMs and radar therefore our airspace is impenetrable'

In a 'limited' war, I don't see any major air battles or even incursion into enemy territory.
But in a full scale war, yes SAMs and Ground radars prevent some SEAD ops, but what's to say there wont be intel on such sites, who's to say that LR A2G weaponry wont be used? Hell



First of all... I want you to realise that in a war you don't line up soldier against soldiers and have at each other until one dies...
There is so mcuh more to tae into account...

similarly, you can't just say we have x amount Jet A and we have 2x amount of Jet B, therefore we win...
It's naive to say the least.

Now, you tell me why an Air force with 80-odd F-16 Block 52, 150JF-17 and 50-odd J-10B backed by AWACS and all BVR capable couldn't fight off the IAF, not to forget SAM systems and radars.

I don't know what you are trying to imply about the F-16 10801, but it looks like a normal multi-role fighter not a SEAD config.......for that you need anti-radiation missiles...long range.....and above all dedicated jamming pods.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

First.. the JF-17's avionics are fairly satisfactory.. infact.. more than satisfactory as far as the PAF is concerned.
The europeans arent all out of the game yet.. MBDA is a major supplier for the Rafale's weapons and will send a fair share of profits to the EU's way.
..

MBDA is also a supplier of the Spada-2000 air defence system to PAF...

so they gain from both sides

 

[Jungibaaz]

I don't know what you are trying to imply about the F-16 10801, but it looks like a normal multi-role fighter not a SEAD config.......for that you need anti-radiation missiles...long range.....and above all dedicated jamming pods.

AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missile and AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advance Targeting pod can be seen on that particular pic.
If I am not mistaken PAF's F-16s also posses AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The ac you are talking about have already cover their life span so dont expect much from them.
and mig 21 crashed are mostly due to rookies coz of the high landing speed of mig 21.
although you can continue to float your boat in your dreams and arguments

has little to do with rookies.....high landing speed?

seems that a floating boat makes more sense than being lost adrift, cap-sized.....

mig-21 (of similar age) are serving air forces around the world, many with as many if not more flt.hours than the indian versions. I've discussed HAL and their maintenance standards in other threads; i wont deviate from topic here.

dont worry -- i wasnt implying that factory-fresh Rafales would be falling out of the sky just yet. They can be a bit maintenance intensive though, perhaps a bit less than the twin-engined flankers (a few of which crashed already)