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Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA

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the difference is increasing really fast

+200 FGFA
280MKI
126 rafale
80 JSF(or naval Rafale)
60 mig
50 mirage

with only
77 F-16
150-200 JFT
and 50-60 J-10B(only with AESA)

PAF should have gone for a air superiority fighter by 90 lets say f-15
 
Rafale-thumb-560x576-32206.jpg


absolute STATE OF THE ART

the news isnt confirmed yet...its not an statement by the minister of defence but by some random official...
the report also says that no financial deals have been signed and will only be signed...if at all....in the next fiscal year..
so no need to panic...indians ace at delaying matters for years...
PAF will have years to plan and compensate before the Rafale is finally flying in tricolour.
 
LAST HOPE.

nice optimistc post

IAF has just made the prefect choice. A TRUE MULTI ROLE FIGHTER with the most advanced jammers and spectra EW suite in the world bar F22.

rafale for india will be tranche 3 and will include RBE2 aesa radar. One generation ahead of the USA APG79...

Rafale is a COMBAT PROVEN leading MMRCA as proven LIBYA & afghanistan. campaigns

F16 TYPHOON & TORNADOS have all played 2nd fiddle to the highly advanced mature fighter.

PAFS answer

Should be

F16/60

fc20 (if you trust tech VERSIS french tech)

AND IN LARGE NOS IE 120+

Nothing is absolute perfect. Manpads can take it down, or a well-experienced pilot. In the 71 war, and in Arab-Israel war, the radars were jammed and radio was hacked. I recommend you to read two articles.

Cheapest kill.
The morning of 7th of December was quite hazy, particularly at lower altitudes where the dust of Punjab plains mingled with the moist, cold air, giving the sky a murky appearance. While the PAF was conserving its air effort in the early stages of war, IAF’s intensity of air operations was building up at a fast pace.

Flg Off Man Mohan Singh was ferrying a Gnat from Halwara, to beef up a detachment of No 2 Squadron at Amritsar where these aircraft were deployed to perform air defence duties. As Mohan was nearing home, the controller at Amritsar Radar asked him to delay his landing while a pair of Su-7s took off. After holding off for a few minutes, Mohan resumed a northerly heading for the Base.

Sqn Ldr Farooq Haider, a veteran of the ’65 War, was sitting as the duty controller in No 403 Radar Squadron which was located in the outskirts of Lahore. Watching the radar scope intently, he had picked up a blip as it approached Tarn Taran, south of Amritsar. With the adversary nearing its home Base, Farooq had to act fast. He commenced the interception with steady instructions on the radio.

“Your target now over Tarn Taran, heading 360; do not acknowledge.”

“Target 20 (degrees) right, five (miles), turn hard left 360, do not climb; do not acknowledge.”

“Target 12 o’clock, two (miles), go full bore; do not acknowledge.”

“Okay, target is one mile ahead …”

The IAF had been expecting PAF fighters to sneak in below radar cover. Thus, to be doubly sure about any undetected intruders, the IAF used a capability that it was well equipped for – eavesdropping into pilot-controller conversation. Listening in to what was going on, the IAF controller was completely dumbfounded at the development, for he had not yet picked up any blip on his scope. All of a sudden, he frantically shouted on the radio to announce the presence of interceptors in the Gnat’s rear quarters! It was no surprise, therefore, that the controller’s warning to Mohan sounded eerie, as if a spectre was being reported. With the interceptors’ distance rapidly reducing and shooting down of the Gnat almost a certainty, the controller gave a panic ‘break’ call. Mohan reacted as any fighter pilot would have done in that situation. He yanked back on the control column and threw in a very tight turn to shake off his pursuers.

Farooq noticed that the blip had disappeared from the radar screen shortly after manoeuvring had commenced. Normally, he would have enquired about the fate of the target from the interceptor pilots within moments of the shooting. This time, however, he had to be discrete. “Maintain radio silence and recover at low altitude,” he called out. Meanwhile, Farooq and his fellow controllers wondered if the vanished blip meant that the aircraft had landed at its Base?

India’s Official History of Indo-Pak War - 1971, published thirty years later, covers the air operations with a diary of action which includes important events like air raids, aerial victories and losses on both sides. A keen reader would notice acknowledgement of the loss of a Gnat on 7th December 1971 in which, “the pilot tried to take evasive action when warned of Pak aircraft in the vicinity. He lost control and crashed.”[8] The only inaccuracy with the account is that Pakistani aircraft were nowhere near!

Standing CAPs were a rare commodity due to excessive demands on PAF’s limited assets. Farooq had, therefore, reacted to the emergent situation in a most ingenuous way. He impulsively decided to fake an interception in the knowledge that his calls would be monitored. The thrill of playing a prank was better than getting frustrated at the sight of an enemy blip pacing away unscathed. In the event, Farooq’s trick resulted in a bargain of great value, which can be gleaned from the amazing fact that not a gallon of fuel was expended, nor was a single bullet fired. Arguably, it stands as the cheapest kill of air warfare.

As for Arab-Israel war:
Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a grueling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF C-130, they were whisked off to Damascus by road. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a cease-fire; it was therefore decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria, it was another story.

The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 Squadron, Alpha Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr near Damascus.

Syria had not agreed to a cease-fire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation, using the call sign ‘Shahbaz,’ was formidable in size – all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few ‘Khalsas[1]’ for the job!

After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the airshafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the coffee session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to Base – this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 20,000 ft. The limited fuel of their early model MiG-21F permitted just a 30-minute sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys were approaching from the southerly direction ie, Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the ‘takka tak[2]’ at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?

Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within moments, the second Mirage filled his gunsight. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K-13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn’t as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter ‘J’ in Mirage-IIICJ stood for ‘Jewish,’ it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of sonic bangs over Damascus. (Word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn't amused!) His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.

As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.

The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, the Syrians explained!

Sattar's victim Captain M Lutz[3] of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air Base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (Flt Lt Saleem Metla, also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.

The success of Shahbaz over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks any one could have got the kill had he been ‘Shahbaz-8’ on that fateful day. The Syrian Government awarded the Wisam al-Shuja'a to all the formation members. Additionally, Sattar and Arif were admitted as ‘knights’ (al-faris) in the coveted Wisam al-Istehqaq al-Suriya, one of the country’s highest awards for honourable and devoted service. The Government of Pakistan awarded Sattar and Arif with a Sitara-i-Jur’at as well. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF’s elite Combat Commanders’ School and the premier PAF Base, Rafiqui. Many a fighter pilot trained by Sattar would swear by his audaciousness in the air. Even today, crew room lore persists that fighter pilots don’t come any bolder!

Read about Saif-ul-Azam, a PAF pilot who was knighted as 'Sword of Hussein' in the first Arab-Israel battle.
Jammers and radio hacking has got a limit, and PAF has already got experience in older wars to dodge them.
 
the news isnt confirmed yet...its not an statement by the minister of defence but by some random official...
the report also says that no financial deals have been signed and will only be signed...if at all....in the next fiscal year..
so no need to panic...indians ace at delaying matters for years...
PAF will have years to plan and compensate before the Rafale is finally flying in tricolour.

Letter of Intent has been sent. Deal will take another 6 months to get finalized. There was a famous story of a Hare and a tortoise . do read it.
 
pafs operational budget to OPERATE AND FLY a heavey twin engined fighter does not exist.

I would imagine to maintain fly and equip one F15 J11 OR TYPHOON WOULD COST 4 TO 5 X AS MUCH AS A thunder JF17.

This is the reason why PAF doctrine is ALL single engined fighters.

At this moment in time i think IAF ouspends PAF by $5 or $6 to $1... ulimately this FACT is beginning to TELL BIG TIME
 
Letter of Intent has been sent. Deal will take another 6 months to get finalized. There was a famous story of a Hare and a tortoise . do read it.

exactly..
the hare is india and turtle is pakistan.
 
By competing with India, Pakistan is going to harm itself more "Economically". It's high time common people realize this thing. But if you are planning to invade India on the same lines as few Bangladeshis thinks on this very forum then its a different story.
 
the news isnt confirmed yet...its not an statement by the minister of defence but by some random official...
the report also says that no financial deals have been signed and will only be signed...if at all....in the next fiscal year..
so no need to panic...indians ace at delaying matters for years...
PAF will have years to plan and compensate before the Rafale is finally flying in tricolour.

Oh you are the same guy who said MMRCA will take another 20 year's or so !! This news is Confirmed by govt sources and well as Dassault , Try google for same.But there will be Negotiations now after which Deal will be signed and the next fiscal year is there year itself , Our budget will be out by march
 
its been in the news for over 4 years now..
being in the news means nothing when it comes to indian MMRCA.
Well this news(which we are discussing in the thread) is more specific than being in news. Try clicking on the link, it is from bbc, wont hurt you.
 
options are to proceed as scheduled....retire old, induct new and newer block Thunders; maintain current and new(er) F-16 fleet. Keep options open for Chinese 4/4.5 gen aircrafts

once the country has a government (one that functions) and the economic outlook improves, we can analyze other high tech options --- as times are a-changing.


for now PAF has full capability to defend our airspace......i suspect that it will still take some time for indian livery and decals and official handover/ induction. They tend to be a bit on the slow side with these things. But anyhow, will be interesting to see PAF's jawab, to ensure regional peace and balance.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------

me personally, i'm surprised they wont opt for the Eurofighters. But it may be better for us....not to say that the Rafale is not a formidable aircraft and will prove to be a good challenge for our fighters ---fighters being the gun and the well-drilled man behind the gun.
 
Abu wat is the regional balance TODAY

50-50
70-30
80-20

i WOULD SUGGEST IAF is at least twice the firepower of PAF and will grow to 3-1 in years to come

INDIA QUALITY ADVANTAGE IS GETTING TOO BIG.

Other than Typhoon nothing comes close to rafale FOR MODERN TECHNOLOGY
 
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