Opinion Poll | Tribal areas should be made into a new province.

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

40 years ago---these same pakistanis were getting justice from the same courts of law. So what happened to that system?

Did the pakistanis not tear that system apart?

Tell you how out of touch of reality the pakistanis are----here is a quote from the most superior person of pakistan's judiciary and all around him----it goes something like this----" don't you fear that you have to die one day and will face God for HIS justice "---. This is the mentality of the judges of pakistan and pakistanis---.

The pakistanis are clueless that this courtroom that the judge sits in is the extension of the justice system that ALLAH has created. Through biblical precedence or the law of the land---the judge has been given the right to persecute and punish the criminal in this world and not wait for the world here after.

If a muslim nation cannot provide justice and equality of law to its citizens---then it has given away its right to exist. That was one of the reasons that people converted to islam----justice and equality for all. If the very fundamentals of the promise are not delivered---then there are major issues for the basic concept of the belief.

I empathise with what you are going through.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I have adjusted to whatever it is that I am going through. Its OK, as long as you understand that a theoretical position does not necessarily translate to a practical course of action. I am not too sure that FATA people want the Thana & Court system. Given the evidence, I can not blame them.

Even 40 years ago, the legal system was just as Byzantine as it is now. It actually has not broken, rather it has sunk under its own weight. If Parliaments had not been busy acting as rubber-stamps for dictators, something could have been done.

The best defense against Taliban is to be found in our Courts, if our Judicial system works properly. The worst backers of Taliban too are to be found in our courts. Judges who are more concerned about procedure than justice, and crooked lawyers, and litigants who play with frauds are the best supporters of Taliban in Pakistan.

So, as far as I am concerned, rough and ready justice is better than justice delivered after half a century and two generations have gone by.

 

[Panther 57]

As an outside observer here in the US I would think the first major improvement in these areas if made into a unified single Province would be improved tourism, which creates jobs and good cash flow.

Having a unified government with public schools, courts, health and medical care improvements, better roads, better power, etc, etc. most definitely will help overcome the backward disassembled practices of the past and still currently more insular primitive existence.

I did not vote in your poll as that poll belongs to your indigenous Pakistani members here.

Theoretically a very good idea, but difficult to implement. It would not be wrong to say that it is a confusing situation. Centuries old tradition of these areas would be violated by making them a unified province. Resulting in law of land violations. If it is left like this then the area will remain vulnerable to uncalled for developments. On the other hand making it province will expose them to ruthless politicians, who will do what they have done with this country and its provinces. A more viable solution should be to maintain their status as tribe and provide them support through political agents. In this manner their ego will be satisfied, yet a better administrative control can be achieved. The political agent should be trained to help them avoid transgression, while they exercise their tribal laws and provide them development opportunity in a controlled environment.

 

[Sugarcane]

1-Abolish FCR.
2-Pull out army from the area, they dont like fauji boots on their soil
3-Extend the jurisdiction of the Supreme and High courts to FATA, abolish FCR jirgas. FCR jirga members are officially nominated by political administration, they are corrupt and can be bribed ...............the historical and traditional role of jirga was to either act as shura of the village/clan or as mediator/third party in the conflict or issue between two parties who want to resolve it. . This traditional concept of jirga is retained in KPK, Reduce the role of jirga in FATA as it is in KPK.
4- Enforce law through police.but retain "chagha", the call to gather aman lashkars and patrol parties for security of village in bad times.
5- I highly doubt that they will pay taxes. The region is highly under-developed and poor.
6- Their interactions with tribes on other side of durand shouldnt be prevented, it is said that livelihood of 45-50% tribals is based on trade with Afghanistan.

1. FCR will automatically go when FATA is made province.
2. When other federal institutes like Supreme can go there than what's the problem with Army? Afghanistan is not our friend. But i agree that role of Army should be to defend borders.
3. Maybe we can convert Lashkars to police???? And how about replacing Jirga with some sort of customized local bodies election for that area?
4. FATA has lot of potential of tourism and if our borders are secure than it can become hub of trade with CAR, So, development will automatically come.
5. They should start paying taxes and electricity bills like rest of Pakistan, however federal govt. should provide aid initially to kick start.
6. Durand line should be controlled, people who have split family should be given visa on arrival at entry points - but no free movement. They should continue trade but it should be monitored to control smuggling specially of weapons and drugs.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

@LoveIcon
1- They are o.k with FC who are recruited from same tribal areas. Right now FATA is under army control and has disrupted entire political administration. Moreover the police job is also done there by faujis.....army has to withdraw from FATA once taliban problem is solved...if you build cantontments in FATA, you are giving them impression of occupation.
2- The tribal police actually exists, they are called khasadars. Lashkars are temperory forces consisting of volunteers raised in the time of crisis....they dont get paid like police.
3-I have talked with many tribals, they are o.k with current status of FATA because electricity is free, they dont have to pay taxes and there is quota system for them.....though they are not o.k with FCR and political agent.
4- Smuggling is huge on pak-afghan border, political administration itself is involved in it.
5- my personal opinion is that jirga is out-dated and flawed as replacement of judiciary and execution. It should only be used as tribal counsil on qaumi issues and as as third party in conflicts.

 

[Kompromat]

@LoveIcon
1- They are o.k with FC who are recruited from same tribal areas. Right now FATA is under army control and has disrupted entire political administration. Moreover the police job is also done there by faujis.....army has to withdraw from FATA once taliban problem is solved...if you build cantontments in FATA, you are giving them impression of occupation.
2- The tribal police actually exists, they are called khasadars. Lashkars are temperory forces consisting of volunteers raised in the time of crisis....they dont get paid like police.
3-I have talked with many tribals, they are o.k with current status of FATA because electricity is free, they dont have to pay taxes and there is quota system for them.....though they are not o.k with FCR and political agent.
4- Smuggling is huge on pak-afghan border, political administration itself is involved in it.
5- my personal opinion is that jirga is out-dated and flawed as replacement of judiciary and execution. It should only be used as tribal counsil on qaumi issues and as as third party in conflicts.

There are cantonments all over the country, i don't see anyone arguing about 'occupation'. How can you be 'occupied' by your own military?

Please give your two cents about the province issue.

 

[Sugarcane]

@LoveIcon
1- They are o.k with FC who are recruited from same tribal areas. Right now FATA is under army control and has disrupted entire political administration. Moreover the police job is also done there by faujis.....army has to withdraw from FATA once taliban problem is solved...if you build cantontments in FATA, you are giving them impression of occupation.
2- The tribal police actually exists, they are called khasadars. Lashkars are temperory forces consisting of volunteers raised in the time of crisis....they dont get paid like police.
3-I have talked with many tribals, they are o.k with current status of FATA because electricity is free, they dont have to pay taxes and there is quota system for them.....though they are not o.k with FCR and political agent.
4- Smuggling is huge on pak-afghan border, political administration itself is involved in it.
5- my personal opinion is that jirga is out-dated and flawed as replacement of judiciary and execution. It should only be used as tribal counsil on qaumi issues and as as third party in conflicts.

1. I never understood this mindset of occupation - Pakistan Army is people of Pakistan not foreign, when they can have cantonments in other provinces than why FATA have problem with it? I agree that Army shouldn't do policing or interrupt civilian life and should focus on defense of boundaries of country but people there also realize that world is changed now, we need to secure our borders from every front. And with building of cantonment, infrastructure building follows rapidly which is beneficial for local people. So, i think they should change their mindset and start considering Pakistan army as their own rather than thinking that some outsider.

2. I don't know the strength of Police/Khasadar but i am sure they will not be enough to manage all the areas, so more people can be recruited to make them effective and get Army & FC out of towns. How about legalizing, recruiting and training these lashkars as reserved force? they can be given some salaries as well. So, new recruitment and reserve force can create some job opportunities for locals and in future we will not need to send army to deal with any mess.

3. They should realize that just because of free electricity & some quota in job they are loosing more specially their next generations because they are isolated from mainstream, less education, development and job/business opportunities. If FATA is made separate province than quota in federal job still will be there plus lot of jobs will be created in provincial government. With proper provincial government they can exploit the potential of tourism and trade hub more effectively and on faster pace as they will be the one who will get benefit of these more where as federal govt. is mostly busy with other issue and project and to be frank FATA will always be on low priority - and after 18th amendment they can get more powers as province than being under federal government, So, it better that they change their mindset and take charge and start helping themselves. Regarding tax - Pakistan has lowest %age of direct taxes, major revenue of GoP is from indirect taxes which they are already paying in form of sales tax, surcharges etc. as majority of people are in lower middle or lower income class, so most of them will be out of tax net, however in future with rise of income level they have to pay taxes and they should do that.

4. Yes - I know the smuggling at that level can't be done without political involvement, situation is like what we say in Punjabi "Kutti raal gai chooran naal" don't know how it can be stopped

5. If we make FATA a province than systems will be replaced automatically, and tribal council/grand jirga etc. with provincial assembly.

But imho - It's time that tribal people join mainstream and prove their potential and hard work in progress of country.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

There are cantonments all over the country, i don't see anyone arguing about 'occupation'. How can you be 'occupied' by your own military?

Please give your two cents about the province issue.

How can you be bombarded by your own military through jets, tanks and gunship helicopters? .Why india built so many cantts in kashmir? Because it helps in occupation. You would build cantts in FATA because you no longer trust them and to keep them under control. The 1.5 lakh troops in FATA are not there to defend FATA from afghanistan, they are there to counter insurgency in FATA. Once you solve taliban problem, why army should stay in FATA?.....
Note that i am against building of new cantts and stationing of 1.5 lakh faujis. Otherwise there are old army camps in razmak, wana etc, i think no one wil have objections over small army deployments in razmak and other such areas.

 

[Kompromat]

How can you be bombarded by your own military through jets, tanks and gunship helicopters? .Why india built so many cantts in kashmir? Because it helps in occupation. You would build cantts in FATA because you no longer trust them and to keep them under control. The 1.5 lakh troops in FATA are not there to defend FATA from afghanistan, they are there to counter insurgency in FATA. Once you solve taliban problem, why army should stay in FATA?.....
Note that i am against building of new cantts and stationing of 1.5 lakh faujis. Otherwise there are old army camps in razmak, wana etc, i think no one wil have objections over small army deployments in razmak and other such areas.

Sir Kashmir is an occupied territory by a foreign power. The comparison is lame in my opinion.

Terrorists have to be bombed when they carry out attacks on civilians. Don't you have any sympathy for our people getting killed all over the country every freaking day?

How can you demand that we don't lay fingers on the terrorists just because they live in FATA. I reject that argument, they ought to be smashed and obliterated if they hide in FATA, Lahore, Karachi or Quetta.

Do we want peace back in our nation or we don't?

@Pak-one

We need the army on the eastern front don't we?

Do you think FC and Khassadars be able to deal with another COIN scene emerging after the Army withdraws?

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

@LoveIcon
Very good suggestions, i like it. I support their integration into mainstream pakistan, with education tribals would realize that FATA status is actually a curse from british.
About the army cantontments, i have expressed myself in above post.
Punjab and peshawer valley has agriculture, while tribal areas do not have it. So instead of punjab and KPK , priority should have been given to people of tribal areas for army jobs....tribals love army jobs and love to fight...recruit as much as wazir and mehsuds in army (not few dozens), and you can easily integrate them....

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

@Aeronaut i didnt say pull out army from FATA while taliban insurgency is going on. But seriously pak army needs to change its tactics...instead of pak army, some special force for counter insurgency should be created which is expert avoiding civilian casaulties, are trained for ground operations , skilled in commando actions.....
Taliban is not conventional army, they are invisible ghosts...if you bombing their suspected hideouts, chances are you roasting civilians, women and childern...your blunders strengthen them.

As for as comparison of kashmir with FATA is concerned, i was indeed wrong....indian army never used aerial bombarments on mountains and jungles of kashmir let alone villages and towns.

 

[Kompromat]

@Aeronaut i didnt say pull out army from FATA while taliban insurgency is going on. But seriously pak army needs to change its tactics...instead of pak army, some special force for counter insurgency should be created which is expert avoiding civilian casaulties, are trained for ground operations , skilled in commando actions.....
Taliban is not conventional army, they are invisible ghosts...if you bombing their suspected hideouts, chances are you roasting civilians, women and childern...your blunders strengthen them.

As for as comparison of kashmir with FATA is concerned, i was indeed wrong....indian army never used aerial bombarments on mountains and jungles of kashmir let alone villages and towns.

Mere bhai, if you ask me i would rather have a national Jarga in Faisal Masjid and ask the Tribals to sort it out. Using forces on one's own soil is not a great idea, it does create resentment no matter how good your COIN and IDP and infrastructure development strategies are.

FC is being raised to become a dedicated COIN/CT outfit.
Elite police and other units are being merged into a National Counter Terrorism Response Force.

Fact - We have nukes but our eastern flank is 'naked'. We ought to sort it out, pull the boys back and send them back into Punjab and Sindh. We face an existential threat from the east, not from the west.

I was hoping that you will answer my query about merging all agencies into a province or allocating all agencies the status of provinces. It will mean much robust govt, competition, infrastructure, border control. education and security.

Since your knowledge about the Tribal areas is greater than mine, please write is it a feasible option, why and why not, pros and cons and what would be the response of the tribes.

Thanks in advance.

 

[MastanKhan]

1-Abolish FCR.
2-Pull out army from the area, they dont like fauji boots on their soil
3-Extend the jurisdiction of the Supreme and High courts to FATA, abolish FCR jirgas. FCR jirga members are officially nominated by political administration, they are corrupt and can be bribed ...............the historical and traditional role of jirga was to either act as shura of the village/clan or as mediator/third party in the conflict or issue between two parties who want to resolve it. . This traditional concept of jirga is retained in KPK, Reduce the role of jirga in FATA as it is in KPK.
4- Enforce law through police.but retain "chagha", the call to gather aman lashkars and patrol parties for security of village in bad times.
5- I highly doubt that they will pay taxes. The region is highly under-developed and poor.
6- Their interactions with tribes on other side of durand shouldnt be prevented, it is said that livelihood of 45-50% tribals is based on trade with Afghanistan.

Hi,

No aman laskars at all----it is not the job of the civilians to enforce law and order. The police force must be used instead.

Fata needs to come and join and live in the civilized world

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

The tribals that i have met strongely support a FATA province, if they themeselves support it then it is obviously a feasible option.....

Its time tribals are freed from tyranny of political agents.

@MastanKhan you mean that corrupt police which bribe and harass people but is scared of powerful ones?
We may not be modern like you americans...but unlike you people we are not individualistic...we are social and we have a society where every one is connected to another one..strong community sense and common bloodline make us to think collectively .

 

[Kompromat]

The tribals that i have met strongely support a FATA province, if they themeselves support it then it is obviously a feasible option.....

Its time tribals are freed from tyranny of political agents.

@MastanKhan you mean that corrupt police which bribe and harass people but is scared of powerful ones?
We may not be modern like you americans...but unlike you people we are not individualistic...we are social and we have a society where every one is connected to another one..strong community sense and common bloodline make us to think collectively .

This thread for me is to collect information pool which i will be using in the future to produce pieces on the same topic. You can help me and i would much appreciate it if you wish to.

If we don't make a noise, we don't get there.